Hand Holding Boat Hook as Whisker Pole Legal?

Discussion in 'Racing' started by glaufman, May 10, 2019. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Hi All-
    Our first race of the season is tomorrow, looks like it'll be a miserable drifter... a rules question, since I don't have a whisker pole yet (or a chute for that matter)…
    I've studies the RRS, and the Casebook, and the US Prescriptions, solicited opinions from "famous" racers, and at least one former National Judge (who specialized in RC racing) in Canada, all with conflicting opinions... no one seems to have more weight than any other...

    RRS 50.3 says "No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger..." 50.2 exempts Spinnaker and Whisker poles from this prohibition. Case 4 says a competitor may hold a sheet outboard. So...

    Would a competitor, using a boat-hook to hold the sheet and/or clew of a genoa outboard be in compliance? While it's a "device so placed that it could exert outward pressure... outside the hull or deck," as stated in 50.3a, the sail is not "sheeted over or through...," (also from 50.3a)…

    ???
     


  2. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,068 posts, 3,077 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    A crew member can hold the sheet or clew just as long as their body remains in a legal position. Usually this means torso inside the lifelines. If you used a pole or any other apparatus it must be attached to the mast. No exceptions.
     


    Parsons likes this.
  3. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Thanks JD... perhaps you'll allow me to explore a little...
    The only definition I see to qualify for a legal whisker pole is in 50.2, where it must be "attached to the foremost mast" when in use... no description of HOW attached...
    So, attaching the boat hook by tying a line around it and around the mast (or a mast cleat etc) makes it legal?
     


  4. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,068 posts, 3,077 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Yes, as long as it meets the length limits/requirements. Whatever it IS, being attached to the mast is the biggie.
     


  5. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,068 posts, 3,077 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    One more thing - the racing rules of sailing and the protest process is very much like a US court civil suit. You can sue anyone for anything. It might get tossed out, but there you go. So the best advice is make it look clean. The goofier it looks the more likely someone’s going to take exception.
     


  6. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    I assume you're referring to any length limits are in NOR, SI, PHRF etc, as there aren't any in RRS? And we're talking length of the pole, not length of attachment line, right?
     


  7. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Right you are... but in my world, goofy and compliant beats illegal-but -looking-clean any day... Part of me wants to do it and have someone protest, and then appeal it, just to get an official ruling.
     


  8. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    And yes, a proper pole+attachment is in my future, but all my planned projects got back-burnered this spring...
     


  9. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,068 posts, 3,077 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Correct on all points.
     


  10. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,068 posts, 3,077 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Oh I agree. I just prefer to stay out of the protest room. I'm a rules geek and it helps. I've found that a simple explanation to someone after the race often saves an appointment with the PC.
     


  11. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Agree 100%. I outfitted the quick-deploy-protest-flag as a deterrent....

    I wish I could remember who, but I read one famous racer quotes as saying "We should protest more, and care less when it happens"... I do find it educational... when I'm not one of the parties of course...

    I studied the rules and various scenarios just to make sure I understood so I could stay out of the protest room... and not get pushed around... and then realized I'd turned myself into a rules geek in the process... "Hey Greg, I'm filling out a protest form... what rule # is Windward/Leeward?"
     


  12. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    8,994 posts, 3,910 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    In time past I have fashioned an emergency whisker pole (the proper length) out of a wooden 2"diameter dowel. Attached a hook to each end (snap hooks screwed and wrapped with cord both ends) for racing a 20 footer in light air. Showed it to the race chair just to be polite and confirmed it was though unconventional acceptable for the race.
    Sometimes necessity can be the mother of invention.
     


  13. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Also good to get a running in advance... Every time I try that he says"if someone protests well have to have a conversation about it"... Yesterday's race committee was even to lazy to put up the signal flags... And set a finish line parallel to the final let rhumbline... No one knew which way to cross... I'm a little bitter
     


  14. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,068 posts, 3,077 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    A Protest Committee can’t/don’t do anything until a protest happens.

    If the RC doesn’t follow the protocol defined in the Si, protest them.
     


  15. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    8,994 posts, 3,910 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    It seems that might be the way to volunteer for the leadership of the Race Committee.
     


  16. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    To what end? I got a perfect start. Best of my knowledge one can't protest the rc, one can only request redress for rc errors. Not going to make someone care about racing by protesting them when they're serving rc duty.
    Definitely.. of course id actually be willing, after serving on committee for a couple years, but don't even want to do that for a couple years as my wife's about to take over as commodore
     


  17. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    8,994 posts, 3,910 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    There would be the question of nepotism in the Leadership.
     


  18. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,068 posts, 3,077 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    To what end? You just got done saying you were bitter. If the RC does not follow rules, whats the point? I know we're spoiled at WYC because we have paid professionals as RC, but even volunteers should play right. For example maybe you had a great start, but did everyone else? You expect boats to follow the rules, the RC has to as well. I've seen entire races abandoned due to RC errors.

    Yes 'protesting' the RC is redress, in the sense that the RC can not be disqualified... but thats not what you want anyway. The PC in a redress hearing has incredibly wide latitude to give relief and make things right, everything of DSQing a bunch or boats to even abandoning the race completely.
     


  19. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,068 posts, 3,077 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Pretty sure that was his exact point.
     


  20. glaufman

    glaufman

    Joined May 23, 2016
    139 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 1984 23
    US Island Park, NY
    Point is, there's no point in protesting or requesting redress on these grounds... This is best served by a conversation with race management and the general membership... This isn't quite isolated either... Endemic problem with race committee populated often by those who don't care about racing... This is just the worst I've seen yet... And I'm more disgusted because the one responsible crews in the one design races...
     




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