Halyard guides inside mast?

[Rustiferion]

I am working on a friend's Beneteau 32 (I think a First) that has developed a snarl in the jib halyard somewhere inside the mast, presumably behind the outlet sheaves at the bottom. The problem reportedly was caused by a frayed jacket on the StaSet halyard. Crew tried to move the halyard first one way then the other, then used a deck winch to force it, ... then it broke, just outside the sheave. Further attempts to move it have failed.
Several questions: first is, what could it have jammed on? Is there some kind of tubing or other guideway inside the mast, say as an anti-slapping design? None of the other halyards or lines seem to be affected by this.
Secondly, is there any way to dismount the lower sheaves without pulling the stick? Doesn't look like it to me, since the axle pin seem to have a cotter on the INSIDE of the mast (very dumb design, not what I would have expected on a Beneteau.) If I drill out the pin, I still won't be able to reinstall it, since it wants to slide INTO the mast, not out.
And we still don't know what it's stuck on. If the problem isn't right at the bottom, pulling the mast may not help.
Pictures to follow.

 

[DayDreamer41]

Perhaps get a hold of
U.S. SPARS, INC
6320 N.W. 123rd Place
Gainesville
Florida
32653
Ph:1-800-928-0786 or 386-462-3760
Fax: 386-462-3448 Web: www.usspars.com
I looked for a cross section but wasn't successful

 

[Jackdaw]

First 32 is a old boat, last built in 1984, before they started building in the USA. French built, french mast. Probably Z-spar. Beneteau does not design the mast sheave system, the spar builder does.

My old rule for sailboats is; if it's taking too much effort, you're doing it wrong or somethings wrong. The moment you need to put onto a winch a line that used to be a hand load, one of these two things is true.. probably the latter.

 

[jssailem]

@Rustiferion Welcome to the Forum.
In general terms there are several places inside the mast that can screw up a halyard.

1. The sheaves both top and bottom of the mast.
2. A screw point extended to far into the mast to attach something to the mast outside (i.e. a cleat)
3. The sharp ends of rivets inside the mast
4. The connections for spreaders inside the mast.

Only way to be certain is to take the mast down. Take the ends of the mast off and search inside with a strong flashlight. You may get clues examining the outside. It is a challenge. You might try to pull the line backwards (Top down but attache a small messenger to the halyard before you loose the halyard inside the mast.

 

[DayDreamer41]

@Rustiferion You might try to pull the line backwards (Top down but attache a small messenger to the halyard before you loose the halyard inside the mast.

Sounds like it may be too late for the messenger line if I read the story correctly that is.

 

[jssailem]

@DayDreamer41 Yes. I worried about that as well. Thought I'd throw the idea in there in case there was a possibility and they had not thought about it.

 

[Ron20324]

[QUOTE="jssailem, post: 1422413, member: 127717... You might try to pull the line backwards (Top down but attache a small messenger to the halyard before you loose the halyard inside the mast.[/QUOTE]

Post one says he tried both directions.

 

[Joe]

Is the halyard all rope, or wire to rope. If wire to rope, is the connection a splice? or something else.. like a knot and shackle? A bulky connection like that could easily get hung up on the wiring conduit or the back of something else.
At the very least you need to remove the exit block... they are often in a box that is screwed or riveted to the mast. If the exit block is down low and the halyard comes out at 90 deg.. you might be able to snag the line above the sheave with a hook fashioned from a wire coat hanger. .....
Or... what about the other side of the mast. Is there another plate or exit block on that side you can remove to get to the problem....?
Have you been up to the masthead to see if the hang up there? That's a possibility.

 

[Parsons]

@Rustiferion Welcome to the Forum.
In general terms there are several places inside the mast that can screw up a halyard ....

2. A screw point extended to far into the mast to attach something to the mast outside (i.e. a cleat)
3. The sharp ends of rivets inside the mast​

...

This is a good time to remind everyone who is mounting (or re-mounting) things on a mast to consider what is inside the mast. If using tapped machine screws or blind (pop) rivets, make sure they are only long enough to get a good bite on the inside and not a half-inch more because you have long ones lying around. Ideally, the inside of your mast should be as smooth as possible to avoid abrading halyards and wires.

 

[SoSound]

On my 1990 First 285, the sheaves were installed inside a masthead cap held in place by two J-bolts and a couple of stainless nuts. Super easy to remove with the mast down, I've never been aloft in my life, but I'd think that it should be doable. The USSpars website used to include exploded parts diagrams of all the assemblies...

 

[Rustiferion]

Is the halyard all rope, or wire to rope. If wire to rope, is the connection a splice? or something else.. like a knot and shackle? A bulky connection like that could easily get hung up on the wiring conduit or the back of something else.
At the very least you need to remove the exit block... they are often in a box that is screwed or riveted to the mast. If the exit block is down low and the halyard comes out at 90 deg.. you might be able to snag the line above the sheave with a hook fashioned from a wire coat hanger. .....
Or... what about the other side of the mast. Is there another plate or exit block on that side you can remove to get to the problem....?
Have you been up to the masthead to see if the hang up there? That's a possibility.

The original halyard was 3/8" Sta-Set (double braid). No wire core or spice. I recall that there was a bad worn spot on the outer jacket that we had warned the owner about, that would be what got snagged inside the mast. (I'll have to sit down with the owner and recall the sequence of events, since the actual damage happened on a cruise I did not go on. I also realize that this was not the jib halyard, since the jib is on a furler. Might have been the topping lift or maybe the spin halyard).
In the photo, it's the right-hand sheave (exit block). Someone attached a light braided line to the halyard end, apparently, and tied that to a hose clamp (as needs must, I guess) to keep the end from retreating behind the sheave. Obviously my first order of business is to find what that's about.

 

[Gunni]

My mast has a wiring conduit riveted to the forward inside face of the spar. There are connections for deck light and steaming light at mid-section. All represent possible snag locations. Before I removed the stick I would run a new halyard. From the mast top run a reaving line with a section of bicycle chain, or similar and capture it with a coat hanger from the bottom. Attach a new halyard and pull it through.

 

[Rustiferion]

My mast has a wiring conduit riveted to the forward inside face of the spar. There are connections for deck light and steaming light at mid-section. All represent possible snag locations. Before I removed the stick I would run a new halyard. From the mast top run a reaving line with a section of bicycle chain, or similar and capture it with a coat hanger from the bottom. Attach a new halyard and pull it through.

I still have the problem of not being able to get the sheave out of the exit block (see photo above). until I do, there is no access to the bottom of the mast.

 

[Ron20324]

What the heck is that hose clamp doing? Is THAT BROKEN/KNOTTED LINE THE ONE THAT BROKE. oR IS IT A MESSENGER LINE?

 

[Parsons]

Just trying to understand the photo as I have never seen blocks for line exits that did not have a removable mount. The sheave mount is actually welded into the base of the mast, and there's a shaft for all three sheaves at once? That shaft is somehow secured on the left-side of your photo, and even if there was no pressure on any of the three lines, you cannot remove the shaft? Now I get your second comment in your original post - what a silly design! What happens if you needed to replace or even service those sheaves?

 

[Gunni]

I still have the problem of not being able to get the sheave out of the exit block (see photo above). until I do, there is no access to the bottom of the mast.

I don't remove the sheaves when I replace running rigging. You do need to clear that band clamp. After that you are just trying to hook a weighted messenger line from the masthead.

 

[NYSail]

Go up top and see if you can remove the cap to see down. My old boat I was able to do this...... able to get to the upper sheaves when cap was off as well as see down mast. Could the line have jumped the upper sheave and wedges between sheave? I have seen this happen before. Or maybe try an inspection scope..... forgot the exact name but I have one with a 10 foot wand I can fish into places.... it has a camera with lighting on the end..... great tool. It also can magnify.
Good luck

 

[DougM]

I would bet some small change that the line in question is jammed in the sheave at the masthead.
Since this is a boat with some age on it, the sheaves themselves could be deteriorated and need replacement.
I would guess that the backstay is possibly attached to the masthead casting, so that would eliminate the thought of removing the casting without dropping the mast. It would be money well spent to drop it, inspect/replace running rigging and standing rigging.
Looking at the photo of the mast base, I cannot see how its even possible to remove the shaft holding the three sheaves without dropping the mast, and even then I wonder about how that shaft is secured at the inside end.

 

[sailermaned]

Weld in Boxes at the base of the mast are generally held in with a spring pin, where the pin can simply be tapped out from other side from the flat with a punch.
In this case maybe just need to pry out considering other end is on the inside of the mast . Good luck Eddie

 

[Rustiferion]

Just trying to understand the photo as I have never seen blocks for line exits that did not have a removable mount. The sheave mount is actually welded into the base of the mast, and there's a shaft for all three sheaves at once? That shaft is somehow secured on the left-side of your photo, and even if there was no pressure on any of the three lines, you cannot remove the shaft? Now I get your second comment in your original post - what a silly design! What happens if you needed to replace or even service those sheaves?

Exactly. The axle pin goes in from the side (the port side block is the same, reversed) thru all 3 sheaves and is somehow secured on the inside of the mast, I'm thinking a simple cotter pin.