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H26 does not seem to point as well as other boats

Discussion in 'Smaller Boats' started by Jim Loats, Feb 27, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    6,355 posts, 483 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    I have been in touch with the original poster and will be working with him as there is concern with the rake, no pre bend and very little room to work within the shroud turn buckles as it may appear to be long. In addition the seizing of the studs within the turnbuckle bodies was done with copper wire but that will be changed out to stainless steel cotter pins. The first will be photos of the turnbuckle bodies to see how much room he has and will go from there. The boat is still under wraps with a tarp over the mast but highly suggested extra support under the mast instead of only in the middle where the mast step is. We discussed that as a concern should snow , ice or rain should acculmulate on that tarp.

    I learned to speak in layman's terms over the years and to ignore all the fancy words thrown out there. Remember that most folks here are not as savy to the graphs or initials and so on and that is nothing wrong with that as upward to 95% are pleasure sailors. However, I applaude those who do contribute like Will, Jackdaw, Judy J and others. Sometimes I have disagreed with some and that includes Jackdaw a time or two but have relied on his tremendous contributions and the leaning of toward a layman's terms in a time or two. It is why I have come to respect him even though at times he and I disagree. Jackdaw thank you for putting with me.
    In layman's terms with the B & R rig that is on both the 26 and 260, many who do not know the boat need to know that first there is no back stay plus the theory was to build a larger mainsail than a standard with the theory that is more of the driving force since there is no backstay with a smaller jib up to a 110. Then there is water ballast and a centerboard to control drift sideways. It takes time with any boat as well for a new owner to experience it and then to sail better. However the original design and I know was for a pleasure sailing sailboat with room that could be trailered, not for racing as I was very much involved with that process. Understanding that above in layman's terms, I found that the boat can point higher than most but again the closer to the wind, speed of the boat does slow down but never pull up the centerboard only if sailing downwind. Then of course less sail in heavy airs keeping that heel no greater than 12-14 degrees thru sail control. I know for some this is hard to fathom but that pretty much is what I use to teach first and then go from there. Yes this boat tends to point higher but again most folks in these boats are for pleasure sailing and some do intend to race.

    I rely on those who do race the 26 and 260 for experience and comments here and in my older days try to monitor now as I am involved on the side a lot actually traveling many times out of state to help asking only for out of pocket expenses. I enjoy serving and meeting new folks.

    To all of you who contribute, we all learn and am grateful for Jackdaw, Will, Kermit the ugly green frog (actually he has been here and we are good friends), and to all others who make this site great.
    Crazy Dave
     


    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  2. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    178 posts, 108 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    @Will Gilmore

    On some rigs, the backstay tension controls forestay tension and sagging as well as mast bend.

    Increased forestay sag makes the draft of the mainsail deeper, and the entry shape of the sail rounder. The entry shape affects acceleration and power, wider groove and more tolerant of wind shift/steering errors, but a lower ultimate angle of attack. A tight forestay with a flat entry puts you in pointing mode (4th gear) . Rounder entry puts you in acceleration mode (3rd gear) for passing or sailing in lumpy water, where the boat speed getting knocked around by waves and chop, and the AWA is moving all,over the place.

    The degree to which forestay sag can be controlled depends on the design of the rig, so you need to know your own rig.

    As Will and @walt alluded to earlier, on some rigs, the back stay can be used to bend the mast, which flattens the middle section of the main. backstay tension controls bend, which reduces the draft in the mainsail (less power), changes the shape of the entry of the mainsail and may open the leech too. Again, the degree of control depends on the type of rig. In general, fractional rigs with swept spreaders can be bent more easily.

    Mast head rigs with no swept spreaders and stiff mast don't bend much, in general. Many mast head rigs have backstays, but they can't be adjusted.

    Every rig is different, and the Hunter B&R rig without a backstay is a different breed of rig. Crazy Dave Is the resident Hunter expert, and understands the finer points of tuning it better than most, so I'll leave it to him to comment on tuning it.

    I'm in the sailmaking business, so I will point out That getting a good match between the tuned bend of the mast and the design of the curve in the luff is essential for good sail shape.

    Judy B
     


  3. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    178 posts, 108 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    @JamesG161 : Yes, indeed. That's true for most boats, to a greater or lesser degree.

    Judy B
     


  4. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    178 posts, 108 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    @Jim Loats:
    What's your local phrf rating for your Hunter 26? what boats are beating you upwind? How is your corrected time in the races?

    I looked up the HUNTER 26 PHRF ratings on USSailing. The Alum Creek fleet has six boats, and ratings were current as of 2010. Their base rating for the Hunter 26 is 219 sec/mile.

    ALUM CREEK 219 C 10 6
    LAKE KEOWEE 220 A 03 1
    LAKE LANIER 219 A 02 0
    MID ATLANTIC 216 C 03 0
    NARRAGANSETT BAY 228 A 96 1
    NE FLORIDA 216 A 97 1
    WEST FLORIDA 206 B 17 1

    Judy B.
     


    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  5. Jim Loats

    Jim Loats

    Joined Jun 6, 2004
    13 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 26
    US Chatfield Reservoir in Denver
    Hi again,
    Boy, I am learning a lot from all of your posts... and yes NICE GRAPHIC !

    First, I need to mention that I WILL get the bottom cleaned up and painted for this summer. And I am wondering if new sails would help.

    Jackdraw, I owe you some answers to questions that you asked a while ago. My "Upwind Sail Trim" habits are based on lots of experience but very few facts. I've been sailing since 1964 [M-16 in Wisconsin, Hobie 16 in midwest and a Catalina 22 here in Colorado.] So I like to think of myself as having a good feel for how to maximize VMG on these different boats, but I have never had the instruments to give myself a test. My original question arose from a whole summer's worth of observations during our races. I've been sailing a long time, but last summer was my first time racing. I do understand the need for clear air and have often sailed "my own race" to get to it.

    I'm grateful for a good chat with Crazy Dave the other day. When the water opens up in 4-6 weeks and I put the boat in, I'll be able to share photos and more specific details of what I am learning from you all and Dave. Thanks so much.

    No one responded to my request for experiences with 22 year old Doyle sails. DrJudyB, have you been involved with new sails for the H26 or 260?

    As to some later questions: The H26 has a fiberglass center board like its rudder. I don't know the beam. It is a water ballast boat. I am sorry, but I don't know the PHRF rating that my club is using for this boat.
    Thanks again for all of your responses. Seems to be a good topic. Jim L.
     


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  6. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    178 posts, 108 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    @Jim Loats :

    22 year old sails surely ain't helping! There's really no way they still have much shape stability. That will significantly hurt your ability to point.

    Shapeless and stretched out sails may move boats, but they don't point well, cause heeling. They make triming ineffective. In contrast, decent sails help you learn to sail better.

    Baggy, mis-shapen sails are not going to help you race. You will be stuck at the back of the fleet with really old and baggy sails, unless you are a miracle worker.

    Yes, we have built many sails for all the Hunter models, including the 26.

    Judy B
     


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  7. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    2,371 posts, 960 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    Jim, while no one responded to your request specifically about Doyle sails, from the very beginning, almost everyone has agreed that old sails are probably the biggest problem. Get new sails. I put my vote in for having DrJudyB make them for you (even if she has too much grace to advertise herself on SBO, I won't hesitate to tell you her company's name: HydeSailsDirect). I got my sails for her and it was an excellent experience. I learned a lot talking to her on the phone. You won't regret it.

    -Will (Dragonfly)
     


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  8. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,627 posts, 2,009 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    OK good info. Some thoughts.

    I’m going to come back to knowing your Sailing the boat optimally. First time racers are often surprised at how much they get beat by. Often at our club, new racers (and good sailors) finish dead last for every race for the first year.

    So I’d make the case that unless you have won a sailboat race before, you probaly don’t know if you go upwind well vs racers.

    Here is another way to check. Look at the PHRF ratings of your fleet, and stack then low to high. Note where you your boat is in that rank. At the first upwind mark, you should round in that order. If you are way off, it’s always the driver.
     


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  9. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    6,355 posts, 483 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Again, the Hunter 26 & 260 are water ballast (2000 lbs in tank when filled, no back stay, mainsail cut larger due to no backstay, etc. can be competitive even with the J 24 which I use to take on and surprisingly outsailed them. A lot hinges of course on the tuner, sails, experience and so forth. The orginal poster has 20 year old sails, out of tune and rake from what I can see on a photo and discussion and so on. Like I said in the beginning, this boat was designed for trailerability and pleasure sailing but when all factors are going for you, surprisingly some boats thought to be slow actually win and of course knowledge of your sailing area paticuraly lakes helps too. I leave to Judy B and Jackdaw on their valuable insight to racing as well as others. I sail for the fun of it.
     


  10. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,627 posts, 2,009 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    If you beat a J24 to the windward mark in a H260 it just means the j24 was being sailed like crap, and doesn't really add much to the discussion. All else being equal, on a mile windward leg, a j24 should arrive at the windward mark about a minute before the H260. A few seconds more, they beat you. A few seconds less, you beat them.

    Often I'll see boat getting beat by 15-20 minutes corrected and then complain about their ratings or boats condition. I have to laugh. A delta like that cannot be explained by ratings or sail condition. That's the racer, pure and simple.
     


  11. Kings Gambit

    Kings Gambit

    Joined Jul 27, 2011
    2,621 posts, 431 likes
    Bavaria 38E
    US Alamitos Bay
    A rating review grants adjustments in only 3-sec/mi increments of maybe one or two increments at a time. So, if someone is losing a two-mile, or even longer, race by several to tens of minutes in corrected time, complaint about an "unfair" rating as the culprit probably would not be taken seriously, as it could not be "corrected."
     


  12. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,627 posts, 2,009 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Indeed. I've had these exact discussions before. The best way to shut them down is to figure out what Boat1's rating would have to adjusted to to allow Boat2 to correct over it. When they rating changes from 198 to 36, the skipper of Boat2 starts to see the light.
     


  13. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    178 posts, 108 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    I want to go on record that I don't race very often. I am just not interested in short course, windward-leeward races around the buoys. I don't practice with a crew. I single or double hand most of the time. I'm sure that even a middle of the fleet racer could beat me in a short course around the buoys.

    Nevertheless I am fast upwind on corrected time. I know how to trim, drive and tune my rig.
     


  14. Will Gilmore

    Will Gilmore

    Joined Oct 19, 2017
    2,371 posts, 960 likes
    O'Day 19
    US Littleton, NH
    My wife and I accompanied my parents on a sail across the Atlantic. We had been married about 2 years. I was looking at the way he trimmed his sails and asked him about it. He went on to explain sailing theory and what to look for and how to get the most out of the sails. I said, afterwards, "So, why are they trimmed like this, they are not efficient, by your own description."
    He said, "That's true. I just am not interested, right now, in spending my time getting it just right. It's good enough, for what we're doing."
    He said afterwards, that he was pleasantly surprised when he came back up on deck to find I had made the corrections.

    My point is that, not being a racer doesn't mean you can't know what good sailing is. It does make sense that racers are more likely to have a sense of how to sail efficiently. They just pay more attention to it.

    - Will (Dragonfly)
     


  15. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,627 posts, 2,009 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Good racing means paying attention 100% of the time for sure. Thats just one part of what it takes to win. Often when 'cruising' we'll back off trimming just to not have it be a full time job. A slight overtrim on the spinnaker means that it can be left on the winch, and not trimmed 100% of the time.

    The bigger point is that its not just a trim thing. Getting to the windward mark first (which rookies always think is a TRIM or a BOAT issue) is much more than that.
     


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  16. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    178 posts, 108 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    And that, folks, is why I don't race very often. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
     


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  17. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,627 posts, 2,009 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    I know. It totally interferes with my beer drinking. ;^)
     


  18. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    6,355 posts, 483 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Jackdaw
    Yes I raced against j 24’s and actually won but all factors were in place to do so but when a customer took over, different case. Not bragging but making a point when everything is in place, it can happen. What I am stressing here there are many factors in racing and the boat is only one part of the equation. You would be surprised who taught me that and with I close
     


  19. Juice6576

    Juice6576

    Joined May 10, 2004
    190 posts, 6 likes
    Hunter MH 37
    US Manitowoc, WI
    I replaced the sails on my H26 when they were 12 years old. The difference was amazing. The boat would point higher, heel less and could carry more sail as wind speed increases.
     


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