All this being said regarding the GPS WRNO, I would offer the following caution: avoid any serious banking or investment transactions starting at midnight the morning of April 6 and for a few days thereafter. This is because, while your GPS will give you the correct location, time may not be accurate. And the rack-mounted GPS units used on the finance business may well be older units and may not behave correctly. It's not likely to empty your account or anything like that. But a transaction could get lost.
GPS Week Rollover Issue
- Thread starter Hunter216
- Start date
Based on any of the financial systems I have been involved with I don’t have personal experience with them sourcing time info from GPS. My experience is that this information is typically sourced from atomic clock data via internet
What? Are these mobile banks? Not sure I want a mobile bank. That is like an automatic's get away car. Step right up and make your deposits here. SWOOSH. The bank is off down the street. With your money. Hell just through your money at your boat. No need for a bank.
Well not so fast...
Engineers: We are only going to last 1024 weeks from our 1980 build, if we use the cheaper smaller chip.
Marketing: Great!! We want them to buy a New GPS before then.
Jim...
PS: Thanks to https://dilbert.com
https://qz.com/1106064/the-entire-g...-gps-and-its-shockingly-vulnerable-to-attack/
While the linked article cites the risks in using GPS the way they do, it should be clear that financial institutions are using GPS heavily for time. Again, this is a sailing forum, not a business forum, so I'll refrain from further posts on the matter. Each GPS satellite carries multiple cesium and rubidium timing sources. Every satellite in the constellation is sending the same time, minus variations for physical effects such as Doppler shift and propagation delay. So everyone worldwide is getting the same time message. If everyone had their own Cesium clock source, the accuracy would be the same but they would be out of sync. And as small as the variations would be, they could prove critical (think about getting your 'sell' order in before George Soros gets his in
) GPS time can be accurate to 10 nanoseconds, though it is typically accurate to within 100 to 1,000 nanoseconds. The ground based units are far more sophisticated that the mobile ones.
While the linked article cites the risks in using GPS the way they do, it should be clear that financial institutions are using GPS heavily for time. Again, this is a sailing forum, not a business forum, so I'll refrain from further posts on the matter. Each GPS satellite carries multiple cesium and rubidium timing sources. Every satellite in the constellation is sending the same time, minus variations for physical effects such as Doppler shift and propagation delay. So everyone worldwide is getting the same time message. If everyone had their own Cesium clock source, the accuracy would be the same but they would be out of sync. And as small as the variations would be, they could prove critical (think about getting your 'sell' order in before George Soros gets his in
) GPS time can be accurate to 10 nanoseconds, though it is typically accurate to within 100 to 1,000 nanoseconds. The ground based units are far more sophisticated that the mobile ones.
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Still one of the best time clocks, Fort Collins CO...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
I just checked my Computer clock with it and they are the same, precision 1 second.
You can still navigate by a Chronometer good to 1 second precision.
Jim...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
I just checked my Computer clock with it and they are the same, precision 1 second.
You can still navigate by a Chronometer good to 1 second precision.
Jim...
This drift got me wondering, so I looked and discovered this tidbit for banking....
- Accurate Time Source is a Must
Ultimately, accurate time must come from a reliable time source. How accurate that time needs to be depends on the financial applications and operations performed. Most network operations (e.g., online security, log files updates) require accuracy on the order of 1 to 10 milliseconds. Most financial business applications require accuracy in the 100 millisecond to 10 microsecond range— even if only to accurately establish the order of events. Financial institutions typically acquire time in one of two ways:
1) over the Internet from the National Institute of Standards and Technology, NIST, or a third-party time service;
2) from GPS satellites. If time is acquired over the Internet, organizations may use NTP (Network Time Protocol), or PTP (Precision Time Protocol) protocols used for synchronizing the clock on client machines with clocks on network time servers. If using time from GPS satellites, this usually is in the form of a GPS referenced time server that delivers time to the local network which in turn is distributed to client machines within the network. A GPS time source is highly accurate and is usually within a few microseconds to UTC.
2) from GPS satellites. If time is acquired over the Internet, organizations may use NTP (Network Time Protocol), or PTP (Precision Time Protocol) protocols used for synchronizing the clock on client machines with clocks on network time servers. If using time from GPS satellites, this usually is in the form of a GPS referenced time server that delivers time to the local network which in turn is distributed to client machines within the network. A GPS time source is highly accurate and is usually within a few microseconds to UTC.
The systems I worked on were typically internal to a specific company so there was a pre-defined time source used for all applications. If a third party was granted access for some reason they had to agree to use the same time source to keep everything in sync.
It’s amazing how fast the tech has evolved as I sit typing this on an IPhone that has comparable computing power to many of the large systems I have worked on in the not so distant past. An IBM XT with a 10MB hard drive, and a color monitor was considered an absolutely awesome beast of a PC! People walking on the moon and returning alive and now for a few $ mariners can look at a screen and know exactly where they are in real time.
It’s amazing how fast the tech has evolved as I sit typing this on an IPhone that has comparable computing power to many of the large systems I have worked on in the not so distant past. An IBM XT with a 10MB hard drive, and a color monitor was considered an absolutely awesome beast of a PC! People walking on the moon and returning alive and now for a few $ mariners can look at a screen and know exactly where they are in real time.
I owned one of those back in the early 80’s. My wife thinks I still have it in the garage somewhere...
You could auction it off and buy a new GPS unit! Or to the right collector maybe a whole new boat to put it on!
I was doing a little reading about this weeks solar event (northern lights visible in southern regions this weekend) and found this on the NOAA website.
https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/
Interesting reading as it relates to GPS.
Space Weather and GPS Systems
The use of single and dual frequency satellite radio navigation systems, like the Global Positioning System (GPS), has grown dramatically in the last decade. GPS receivers are now in nearly every cell phone and in many automobiles, trucks, and any equipment that moves and needs precision location measurements. High precision dual frequency GPS systems are used for farming, construction, exploration, surveying, snow removal and many other applications critical to a functional society. Other satellite navigation systems in orbit include the European Galileo system and the Russian GLONASS system.
There are several ways in which space weather impacts GPS function. GPS radio signals travel from the satellite to the receiver on the ground, passing through the Earth’s ionosphere. The charged plasma of the ionosphere bends the path of the GPS radio signal similar to the way a lens bends the path of light. In the absence of space weather, GPS systems compensate for the “average” or “quiet” ionosphere, using a model to calculate its effect on the accuracy of the positioning information. But when the ionosphere is disturbed by a space weather event, the models are no longer accurate and the receivers are unable to calculate an accurate position based on the satellites overhead.
In calm conditions, single frequency GPS systems can provide position information with an accuracy of a meter or less. During a severe space weather storm, these errors can increase to tens of meters or more. Dual frequency GPS systems can provide position information accurate to a few centimeters. In this case the two different GPS signals are used to better characterize the ionosphere and remove its impact on the position calculation. But when the ionosphere becomes highly disturbed, the GPS receiver cannot lock on the satellite signal and position information becomes inaccurate.
Geomagnetic storms create large disturbances in the ionosphere. The currents and energy introduced by a geomagnetic storm enhance the ionosphere and increase the total height-integrated number of ionospheric electrons, or the Total Electron Count (TEC). GPS systems cannot correctly model this dynamic enhancement and errors are introduced into the position calculations. This usually occurs at high latitudes, though major storms can produce large TEC enhancements at mid-latitudes as well.
Near the Earth’s magnetic equator there are current systems and electric fields that create instabilities in the ionosphere. The instabilities are most severe just after sunset. These smaller scale (tens of kilometers) instabilities, or bubbles, cause GPS signals to “scintillate”, much like waves on the surface of a body of water will disrupt and scatter the path of light as it passes through them. Near the equator, dual frequency GPS systems often lose their lock due to “ionospheric scintillation”. Ionospheric scintillations are not associated with any sort of space weather storm, but are simply part of the natural day-night cycle of the equatorial ionosphere.
https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/
Interesting reading as it relates to GPS.
Space Weather and GPS Systems
The use of single and dual frequency satellite radio navigation systems, like the Global Positioning System (GPS), has grown dramatically in the last decade. GPS receivers are now in nearly every cell phone and in many automobiles, trucks, and any equipment that moves and needs precision location measurements. High precision dual frequency GPS systems are used for farming, construction, exploration, surveying, snow removal and many other applications critical to a functional society. Other satellite navigation systems in orbit include the European Galileo system and the Russian GLONASS system.
There are several ways in which space weather impacts GPS function. GPS radio signals travel from the satellite to the receiver on the ground, passing through the Earth’s ionosphere. The charged plasma of the ionosphere bends the path of the GPS radio signal similar to the way a lens bends the path of light. In the absence of space weather, GPS systems compensate for the “average” or “quiet” ionosphere, using a model to calculate its effect on the accuracy of the positioning information. But when the ionosphere is disturbed by a space weather event, the models are no longer accurate and the receivers are unable to calculate an accurate position based on the satellites overhead.
In calm conditions, single frequency GPS systems can provide position information with an accuracy of a meter or less. During a severe space weather storm, these errors can increase to tens of meters or more. Dual frequency GPS systems can provide position information accurate to a few centimeters. In this case the two different GPS signals are used to better characterize the ionosphere and remove its impact on the position calculation. But when the ionosphere becomes highly disturbed, the GPS receiver cannot lock on the satellite signal and position information becomes inaccurate.
Geomagnetic storms create large disturbances in the ionosphere. The currents and energy introduced by a geomagnetic storm enhance the ionosphere and increase the total height-integrated number of ionospheric electrons, or the Total Electron Count (TEC). GPS systems cannot correctly model this dynamic enhancement and errors are introduced into the position calculations. This usually occurs at high latitudes, though major storms can produce large TEC enhancements at mid-latitudes as well.
Near the Earth’s magnetic equator there are current systems and electric fields that create instabilities in the ionosphere. The instabilities are most severe just after sunset. These smaller scale (tens of kilometers) instabilities, or bubbles, cause GPS signals to “scintillate”, much like waves on the surface of a body of water will disrupt and scatter the path of light as it passes through them. Near the equator, dual frequency GPS systems often lose their lock due to “ionospheric scintillation”. Ionospheric scintillations are not associated with any sort of space weather storm, but are simply part of the natural day-night cycle of the equatorial ionosphere.
Costello: Well then who's on first?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow's name.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The first baseman.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy playing...
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: I'm asking YOU who's on first.
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: That's who?
Abbott: Yes.
There is lots I don’t know about the GPS system including the land based updating. Thanks for that as it compels me to spend some time further educating myself.
My point is that Mother Nature doesn’t seem to care that humankind thinks it’s smart enough to outwit her. <grin>
Well this about the poor sailor who lost her GPS.
But she got the moral to the story...