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Floating Genoa/Jib leads

Discussion in 'Sail Trim with Don Guillette' started by letlmt, Apr 4, 2019. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. letlmt

    letlmt

    Joined Oct 21, 2018
    141 posts, 10 likes
    Catalina Capri 22
    Rebel 2 US Lake George
    I have floating genoa and jib leads on my boat. I cannot find anything online about how to actually use them.

    I know I will figure it out once I start paying with them and look at how the sail changes shape, but I would like to find some kind of primer to get me in the proper mindset.

    On a tack to do raise or lower the lead to generate power and speed before turning back up all of the way to pointing?

    Does raising the lead create more twist or tighten the leach?

    Is raising the lead like car forward, or car back?

    Can anyone out there answer these questions and point me to an article or book that will help me master my new sail controls?
     


  2. jwing

    jwing

    Joined Jun 5, 2014
    471 posts, 203 likes
    ODay Mariner
    US Guntersville
  3. letlmt

    letlmt

    Joined Oct 21, 2018
    141 posts, 10 likes
    Catalina Capri 22
    Rebel 2 US Lake George
    Thank you
     


  4. Ron20324

    Ron20324

    Joined Jan 22, 2008
    6,786 posts, 834 likes
    Beneteau 323
    US Annapolis MD
     


  5. letlmt

    letlmt

    Joined Oct 21, 2018
    141 posts, 10 likes
    Catalina Capri 22
    Rebel 2 US Lake George
    Instead of tracks that run fore and aft with cars that the sheets run through I have a ring that the sheet runs through and I can raise or lower the ring to change the shape of the sail. Based on the prior answer bringing the ring closer to the deck is like moving the car forward and raising the ring off of the deck is like moving the car back. It is much easier and more precisely adjustable than having cars on a track like most boats.

    I also have a barber hauler to move the sheet outboard when reaching which allows me to position the clew anywhere I want to optimize sail shape and slot width.
     


  6. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    8,754 posts, 3,750 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    Your floating Genoa/Jib sheets are controlled by what I know as a tweaker.

    Tweakers change the sheeting angle.
    The tweakers work rather like the jib cars on a headsail; pull them on to bring the clew down and stop the sail from rotating too far to windward, but let them off when reaching.​
    1. On a tack to do raise or lower the lead to generate power and speed before turning back up all of the way to pointing?
      1. When tacking I set my course then gross trim the sail. Access the trim then fine trim the sail.
      2. The tweakers will be set to the same point based on course initial tack up wind. Once on tack adjusted to get optimal shape.
    2. Does raising the lead create more twist or tighten the leach?
      1. Raising the tweaker opens the leach like moving the car forward.
      2. Lower the tweaker draws the leach down tighter closing the sail slot between the headsail leach and main. Using the barber hauler further adjusts the shape of the leach by drawing the clew inward towards the mast base.
    3. Is raising the lead like carforward, or car back?
      1. Car back.
     


  7. jwing

    jwing

    Joined Jun 5, 2014
    471 posts, 203 likes
    ODay Mariner
    US Guntersville
    Does 3.1 contradict 2.1? Or am I missing something?
     


  8. letlmt

    letlmt

    Joined Oct 21, 2018
    141 posts, 10 likes
    Catalina Capri 22
    Rebel 2 US Lake George
    Yes. 3.1 is the correct answer
     


  9. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    8,754 posts, 3,750 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    Yes 2.1 is the car forward. 3.1 is the car sternward.
     


  10. letlmt

    letlmt

    Joined Oct 21, 2018
    141 posts, 10 likes
    Catalina Capri 22
    Rebel 2 US Lake George
    How can raising the weaker be both car forward and car back?
     


    jwing likes this.
  11. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    8,754 posts, 3,750 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    Great question.

    The fixed point, I would interpret from the necessary physics of jib running line design, would be nearer the stern of the jib sheet path. The fixed point could be a turning block that provides fair lead to a winch or a cleat. It functions as a car block yet because of the tweaker it can be positioned further back.

    The tweaker is positioned on the deck as a car forward location. When you haul the tweaker all the way in the tweaker draws the jib sheet down adjusting the angle of the jib sheet to the sail in the same manner as the car moving forward along the track. Both a car and a tweaker modify the angle of the jib sheet to the deck of the boat thus modifying the way the jib leach is positioned.

    Unlike the car the tweaker floats in 3 dimensional space. You will need the barber hauler to control this position of the tweaker.

    In my experience the car on the deck serves most sailors in an simple design fashion. The use of a tweaker and barber hauler add significant complexity to the sail adjustment process.
     


  12. DaveJ

    DaveJ

    Joined Apr 2, 2013
    272 posts, 89 likes
    Catalina 310
    Ca Niagara-on-the-Lake
    I have been watching this thread and learning a few things, and have a question. If I used a Barber Hauler/In hauler/Tweaker, what would happen if I needed to tack in a real hurry and forgot to loosen/remove these?
    Cheers
    dj
     


  13. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    8,754 posts, 3,750 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    DJ, you could experience a fouled sail. Most tweakers I have seen that have been used on racing dinghies are nothing more than a ring, like the "Antal" ring.
    ant-r20.14_1024x1024@2x.jpg
    The jib sheet is feed through the center and the control line is tied around the outside.

    As you can imagine the tweaks can get wrapped around the jib sheet and restrict the sheet playing out in a sudden change of sail tack.

    On larger boats I have observed "snatch blocks" used and attached to pad eyes or the rail.

    Yes they have their value, and also present a risk. Boats using such added tools require skilled operators to attend to the lines and keep the boat going.
     


    DaveJ likes this.
  14. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    9,933 posts, 2,977 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    I’ve sailed on a ton of ‘floating lead’ sheeting systems. The most important in the design part is the position of the fixed lead points relative to the clew. This type of system is REALLY designed for one headsail, best if a jib. As others note, the position of the clew is very important.

    Here the system on a pogo 12.50. Excuse my weather beaten foot. The Antal low-friction ring is positioned by the two 3:1 dyneema lines pulling in and out. The bungee helps keeps the ring from crashing thru the cabin ports. Again.

    BACD4A00-F07F-430A-BFE1-4D86109EA961.jpeg

    Sailing, you end up learning and marking the lines for two uses, adding more twist upwind as breeze builds, and footing farther and farther off the wind when close-reaching.
     


  15. letlmt

    letlmt

    Joined Oct 21, 2018
    141 posts, 10 likes
    Catalina Capri 22
    Rebel 2 US Lake George
    Do you have two sheets running through it? Red and then brown specked?
     


  16. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    9,933 posts, 2,977 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Yes. The Pogo has a heavy-air sail (trinquet) mounted on a removable inner stay. The clew is cut higher to match the sheeting angle of the jib. If you expect you might need the sail, you run the sheets so you don’t have in weather. In practice they don’t get in the way at all.
     


  17. letlmt

    letlmt

    Joined Oct 21, 2018
    141 posts, 10 likes
    Catalina Capri 22
    Rebel 2 US Lake George
    Very interesting. Thanks!!
     


  18. Morgan donor

    Morgan donor

    Joined Sep 17, 2012
    46 posts, 5 likes
    Morgan 383
    US Fairhaven, NY
    How does all that spaghetti work in a quick series of tacks, Jackdraw?
     


  19. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    9,933 posts, 2,977 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    In practice its pretty OK. The shock cord holds the ring up between the two D-rings. The extra sheet stays mostly out of the way, but if you are doing a lot of short-tacking you can remove it.

    This system IS more commonly found on off-shore boats, that stay on a tack for for hours or days at a time. But you can tack in anger is you want!
     


  20. letlmt

    letlmt

    Joined Oct 21, 2018
    141 posts, 10 likes
    Catalina Capri 22
    Rebel 2 US Lake George
    This type of system is also found on high end inshore race boats. I used to race on a boat that had it and it was great on inshore, short course racing
     




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