engine is seized up

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Oct 24, 2011
258
Lancer 28 Grand Lake
Before you take the engine out, try turning it in reverse, you can usually put a couple of bolts into the front wheel of the engine, then put a bar in it, and see if the engine goes back the way, you should also undo all the tappets, and see the push rods are free, because with the rust on those push rods, you could find the cam followers are seized, if the engine moves a little bit in reverse, it will tell you its not the pistons, or bearings, then disconect the cam chain, and see if the engine goes, you could do that, before you take the engine out.
 
Oct 24, 2011
258
Lancer 28 Grand Lake
The engine will be pulled regardless. It is a matter of how much rebuild will need to be done. I still feel resleeving is cheaper than repowering. I am interested in the condition of the cylinder walls- will find out pretty soon.

Does anyone have the weight of the engine with gear wet?

Rick
You dont say the particular engine you are working on, but once you get into re sleeving, you are talking major work, and major costs, you need to replace all the sleeves, all the pistons, piston rings, and it would be foolish not to replace the big end bearings at the same time, then all the gaskets etc. That is presuming it can be re sleeved, A lot of engines, you just have to re bore, and put oversize pistons in, if you have to get someone to strip and re build it, it will cost as much as a new engine.

I would say make absolutely sure, you know what it is that is stopping that engine, before you pull it, and start major work, it may even be worth while, paying a mechanic to find out what is wrong with it, because an amature, can spend a lot of time, and money, to cure a simple problem. I rebuilt the cylinder heads on a porsche, had new valves, and valve seats put in, valve seals, cost a fortune, i was convinced the valve seats were worn, and it was causing backing pressure, and i knew from a compression test, that the piston rings were good, plus the milage was quite low, after all that work, i still had backing pressure, finally spoke to an audi porsch mechanic, that happend to be in the same bar as me, he said, pull the breather hose off, then pull the component that the breather hose attaches to, in cylinder block, then look at the filters in that, i did what he said, and the gauze filters were blocked, solid, cleared them, and never had backing pressure again. That job cost no parts, and only a couple of hours of time. Knew a garage that replace an engine on a car, because it ran was running rough, after they replaced, it with a new engine, it still ran rough, the owner of the car, had filled it with diesel, instead of gas, and the garage decieded the car needed a new engine, for some strange reason, this car ran with diesel in it, it just ran very rough, and blew loads of smoke, it was me who worked out the problem was diesel in the gas.
 
Sep 7, 2011
279
Hunter 1980 37c Illinois
Great advice... Not pulling anything except the heads right now... Hopefully tomorrow morning. Then I will be right back here asking for comments and advice!
Rick
 
Sep 7, 2011
279
Hunter 1980 37c Illinois
Engine will not budge in either diection. Actually broke a piece out of the front pully. Prop shaft turns freely btw.
 
Oct 24, 2011
258
Lancer 28 Grand Lake
Engine will not budge in either diection. Actually broke a piece out of the front pully. Prop shaft turns freely btw.
If it dosent budge in any direction, and its solid, I would say its your crank that is seized, if the pistons were siezed, you would get a tiny bit of movement, even a spring in the crankshaft, if you dont get that, its the cranck that is seized. If you get a little bit of a spring, where the cranck moves slightly, and springs back against your bar, its probably the pistons that are siezed.
 
Sep 7, 2011
279
Hunter 1980 37c Illinois
So if it turns out to be the crank... When I get the heads off... Most likely the pistons and cylinder wall might look ok... I am guessing I wont be able to push on a piston directly and get movement. But if the pistons look ok then we are talking new crank bearings and some machining... Not awful cost wise. Put a compression test on the pistons and put er back in!?
 
Jun 8, 2004
994
C&C Frigate 36 St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
The engine will be pulled regardless. It is a matter of how much rebuild will need to be done. I still feel resleeving is cheaper than repowering. I am interested in the condition of the cylinder walls- will find out pretty soon.

Does anyone have the weight of the engine with gear wet?

Rick
Rick,
The dry weight of the engine is 260 Kg or 280 Kg (depending on model) - so between 572 and 616 pounds.
Jim
 
Oct 24, 2011
258
Lancer 28 Grand Lake
In my experience, when you have one or more siezed pistons, you get a tiny bit of movement in the crankshaft, due the tolerances of bearins, the the flexibility of the metal, when you get a siezed crank, you get absolutely no movement on that crank. I have also found that most siezed engines, its the crank, because all you have to do to sieze an engine, is not change the oil enough, the ports in the crank are fed from the oil pump, when you get dirty oil with sludge, it blocks those ports, dosent feed oil to the big end bearins, and they sieze, and the one that siezes first, is the one furthest from the oil pump, because its the one that blocks first, the main bearings, can be unefected, you just have to take the crank out, have it re ground, and oversize bearings fitted.

The fact you say thier is no movent on the crank, leads me to say, its the big end bearings, if it was the pistons, you would get a tiny movement either direction on the crank, might only be a couple of milimeters, but it will move, but with two big end bearings siezed, an engine wont move, In saying that, other things can sieze engines, when i was young, i worked in a garage, and got given an italian car to re build the cylinder head of, did all the work, put it back toghether, got a new head gasket (an italian one) didnt know that ALTO was italian for up, the head gasket looked the exact same in either direction, but for the word, ALTO on one side, but, when upside down, it had one small oil port blocked, which fed the overhead cam, took the car on a test run, the engine siezed solid, because the overhead cam siezed, which is why i say, it can be the cam, the pistons, the big end bearings, the main bearings, or, it can be a dozen things that are just jamming the engine, such as a siezed valve, stopping a piston from going up, a jumped push rod, jamming a rocker, a siezed cam follower, stopping the cam from going round, a siezed cam shaft.
 
Sep 7, 2011
279
Hunter 1980 37c Illinois
Results are in the cylinders were full of a rusty powdery crap...

OPTIONS?

Please include estimated cost USD.

Rick
 

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Sep 7, 2011
279
Hunter 1980 37c Illinois
So, What would my 1980 H37C be worth after I installed a new engine- new mast and rigging- went through everything and updated everything? USD?
Rick
 
Jun 8, 2004
994
C&C Frigate 36 St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia
Jim, Did you get my rudder PM?
Rick
Yes, sorry for the slow response - I'm just trying to find the rudder shipping dimensions in my old paper work.

Why not check Yachtworld.com or similar to get an idea of what they are selling for - my guess is between $25K & $50K, depending on condition & equipment.
 
Sep 7, 2011
279
Hunter 1980 37c Illinois
Regardless the engine has to come out... wondering if I should take out all the other junk... like strainers, filters, and so on. Really overhaul the space. Clean and check everything...?

BTW, thanks Jim.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
This may not be as bad as it looks. You have pretty good access to the engine and if there is enough to get the oil pan off without removing the engine you can fix this yourself.
Prerequisites:
Have to get the oil pan off to gain access to the connecting rod bolts.
have to get the pistons out.
have to be able to inspect the crank journals for damage.
Do you think you have that kind of clearance?

The repair is pretty simple BTW
Order a complete set of new rings
Purchase a cylinder hone (your auto supply store will have one)
Remove the pistons being sure to note which cylinder and orientation the connecting rods/pistons so you can get them back in the right journals.
Hone the cylinders to the requires "cross scratch" pattern, you may want to pre-clean them with 600 grit paper by hand but be careful 600 grit scratches are very hard to hone out.
Inspect and clean the pistons and remove the old rings
Don’t forget the oil passageways and be sure they are VERY clean before install
Install the new rings then install the pistons in the cylinders
Lube the pistons with motor oil a light coat does fine
Hand crank the motor to spread the oil around the cylinders

Cleanliness is next to Godliness and is an absolute requirement when working with grit and bearings. EVERYTHING must be free of grit BEFORE you begin the reinstall. Think surgical clean and you will be fine.

BTW, I’ve fixed worse and how do the valves look?
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,885
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
I agree with Bill.. Get as much of the rust/powder out before ya try to move the pistons Small wire brush in the bore and a vacuum to clean it out.. Then some pb Blaster on the gap between piston and cylinder.. let that sit a while (a few days with re-application) then, ya can take a piece of 2X4 and bump the pistons to loosen. Make sure ya have the rust cleaned out pretty well or the pistons can be damaged . Pulling the rod caps is a plus here too .. You may be able to do this with the engine installed, but the work would go much faster with the engine on a bench. Good luck !
 
Dec 30, 2009
680
jeanneau 38 gin fizz sloop Summer- Keyport Yacht Club, Raritan Bay, NJ, Winter Viking Marina Verplanck, NY
Jim, reguardless what u do with the engine, rebuild or replace, I would replace the intake water strainer, primary fuel raycor, all fuel hoses, make sure your raw intake vale is first big enough, second a proper valve, also new water and muffler and hoses, these are things taht support your engine and are very important...Redf
 
Sep 7, 2011
279
Hunter 1980 37c Illinois
This may not be as bad as it looks. You have pretty good access to the engine and if there is enough to get the oil pan off without removing the engine you can fix this yourself.
Prerequisites:
Have to get the oil pan off to gain access to the connecting rod bolts.
have to get the pistons out.
have to be able to inspect the crank journals for damage.
Do you think you have that kind of clearance?

The repair is pretty simple BTW
Order a complete set of new rings
Purchase a cylinder hone (your auto supply store will have one)
Remove the pistons being sure to note which cylinder and orientation the connecting rods/pistons so you can get them back in the right journals.
Hone the cylinders to the requires "cross scratch" pattern, you may want to pre-clean them with 600 grit paper by hand but be careful 600 grit scratches are very hard to hone out.
Inspect and clean the pistons and remove the old rings
Don’t forget the oil passageways and be sure they are VERY clean before install
Install the new rings then install the pistons in the cylinders
Lube the pistons with motor oil a light coat does fine
Hand crank the motor to spread the oil around the cylinders

Cleanliness is next to Godliness and is an absolute requirement when working with grit and bearings. EVERYTHING must be free of grit BEFORE you begin the reinstall. Think surgical clean and you will be fine.

BTW, I’ve fixed worse and how do the valves look?
Now that I slept on it several hours-
I can rig up the engine and pull the engine into the salon of the boat ( the whole salon is going to be a "gut" job anyway and refurbish it there- and put it back!
I guess if I were in the South Pacific this is how I would do it.

I have some world class penetrating oil as well- from the refinery.

This is provided that I get the pistons to move like recomended!
I am going up there and doing this right now and let it sit overnight or more.

I will take some pics of the head valves up there too.

GREAT IDEAS!
Rick
:eek:
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
That's the spirit rblevens!!!!! You can do it!!! I like the way you think. We are going to be keeping our eye on you, you have the potential to be a VERY salty sailor.
I've only seen one engine that could not be rebuilt. It had a several .50 cal bullets through the block
If you are going to pull the engine then give it the full Monty, new rings, hone job, new bearings. Everything else is just a clean up and gasket replacement operation. I'm thinking $500 max to get a "good as new" engine.
this begs the question, what made it seize up in the first place? Water through the exhaust would show up in a single (possibly 2) cylinders but all yours had problems. Sleep on it and let that salty sailor subconscious mind work on the problem. We have time to consider things before we are at the reassemble stage and have to actually be brilliant.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
rblevens -

Here are the things you cannot do by yourself.

Clean the block including the oil galleries, check the bores for taper and round, plateau hone the bores, clean the block after honing. Straighten the rods, fit the piston pins, check the ring lands and ring end gaps. Surface the block and the head, check the valves/springs for proper seal and install stem seals. Mike the crankshaft/camshaft and repair/polish/grind as necessary, fit the main and rod bearings with correct clearances. Check the head for cracks.

Simply honing the block will not do. -- For example - there is no way to get rid of the honing debris unless the block is completely cleaned after honing, and manual honing is generally unreliable.

This is not a complete list - just the most important things. For example you would surely verify cam timing and replace the gears if necessary.

There are countless experienced machine shops in Illinois. Go talk with them, listen and make your decisions based on what they say because a good machinist will back up their recommendations with reasons.

You have nothing to loose here -- the information you get from listening to the shops views is free and probably more reliable that what you have read so far.

Charles
 
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