Do you separate the masthead light and the all around light?

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Except on a sailboat unless your 360* all round masthead light is not a top the mast it will not be seen from a full 360* arc.
Trust me, you're not the first person to think of that.

True technically, but in practice that has absolutely no real consequence. Sailors have been hanging anchor lights in their rigging for centuries.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Understood that it is not legal, and I imagine that it could get the offender in trouble if it was brought to the attention of authorities. I think the confusion was part of my reason for asking ... confusion could get the watch paying closer attention until they realize it is just one boat. What difference would it make if the watch thought there might be 2 boats in the same direction if it got them to pay closer attention. What difference would it make when they realize it is just 1 boat. It shouldn't make any difference in their decision making process. The one set of signals would only mimic the other set of signals and be in very close proximity, so there would be no distinction in how boats around them should react. The lights wouldn't indicate conflicting positions. It would look like one small boat with waterline lights and another small boat with masthead lights right next to each other going in the same direction and at the same speed. Why would that make any difference when it is discovered that it is just one boat? It may be misleading, but I don't see how it could lead to a dangerous crossing. Just give me one good example where it would be dangerous ... ;) (that's a challenge)
I know it is a silly question. I rarely see lights that are that distinguished, especially when they are head on. The red and green bow lights usually bleed together, as would a masthead tri-color.
Scott, in the open ocean where there are not a lot of distractions, showing 2 light patterns would probably not make much of a difference. The bigger concern is in more congested waters when we want the skippers to be able to quickly and accurately identify other boats and navigation aids. While I can't say with certainty that these rules were based on any scientific data, there is good science based reasoning behind them.

Human perception is pretty good at recognizing patterns and seeing movement. The well trained mariner's eye will quickly recognize a light pattern and know the type of boat, direction, and and any special circumstances (such as towing or dredging). When the light pattern does not conform to the agreed upon standard the skipper must divert attention from the bigger task of piloting the ship to figuring out what the noncompliant light pattern means; it becomes a distraction. Navigating at night near shore is challenging enough, without boats with noncompliant lights running around.

Navigation lights are not the only area that this pattern recognition is used. Traffic lights are almost uniformly designed with green at the bottom, red at the top (See exception here). We respond to traffic lights more because of the light placement than the color. While I can't quote a source, I'm sure some psychologist studying human perception has studied reaction times based on compliant traffic lights, color less traffic lights, and noncompliant traffic lights. We are well trained to stop for the light at the top and go at the light on the bottom. We also use pattern to speed recognition on other traffic signs, stop signs are always octagonal, directional signs on Interstates are always green and rectangular, caution signs are triangles, etc. All of this is designed to speed recognition to allow the driver's attention to be focused on other potential hazards.

A long answer to a short but important question.

BTW, did you hear about the Waimea Valley Botanical Gardens? A few weeks ago there were extremely heavy rains and the valley flooded. The stream rose to 12 ft. Lots of destruction to a beautiful spot.
 
Jul 12, 2011
1,165
Leopard 40 Jupiter, Florida
I assume it is heresy to ask the question, but what is the downside of illuminating your masthead tri-color and your bow and stern navigation lights simultaneously during a nighttime sailing situation in a coastal area where large ships are present? If it gets noticed one way or the other, what is the harm?
Let's run a contest for the crowd -- first right answer gets a LIKE (valuable award!). If you illuminate both your tri-color and your deck running lights, you have three possible light patterns when viewed from different sides of the boat (following me?): (1) Red-over-Red, (2) Green-over-Green, and (3) White-over-White. What do these three things mean?

Hint - all the answers are in Rules 23 - 30: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,043
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
2 whites in a vertical line might indicate a large boat at anchor. 2 greens alone don't seem to mean anything, but you might say that if you see 2 greens in a vertical line it might indicate which side to pass a boat that is restricted in ability to maneuver. So in these cases, I don't see how displaying both sets of lights can lead to a dangerous encounter. Les shows a more practical mindset. It's better to be seen than not seen. In the event of crossing large ships in open waters, I'd assume that it is best to just stay well clear and navigation rules and tiny lights on small boats just don't really have any relative significance.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
2 whites in a vertical line might indicate a large boat at anchor. 2 greens alone don't seem to mean anything, but you might say that if you see 2 greens in a vertical line it might indicate which side to pass a boat that is restricted in ability to maneuver. So in these cases, I don't see how displaying both sets of lights can lead to a dangerous encounter. Les shows a more practical mindset. It's better to be seen than not seen. In the event of crossing large ships in open waters, I'd assume that it is best to just stay well clear and navigation rules and tiny lights on small boats just don't really have any relative significance.
This is a dangerous thought process. The protocol exists for a good reason. This is akin to wiring on your reverse lights on your car to come on with your tail lights.

Do it yourself if you want, but don't socialize the concept as a good idea.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,043
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
This is a dangerous thought process. The protocol exists for a good reason.
I have to agree with that ... if it came right down to an actual situation, I can honestly say that I would come down on the side of protocol (probably :waycool:). OTOH, Les does present an individual case where I can accept his logic.
 
May 24, 2004
7,129
CC 30 South Florida
Not really true. When anchoring you need to exhibit a 360 degree white light. It's does not need to be masttop, or even mounted on the mast.
You are correct, I had just used the term mast head lightly to mean the 360 degree light fixture that most pleasure boats display when at anchor.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I have to agree with that ... if it came right down to an actual situation, I can honestly say that I would come down on the side of protocol (probably :waycool:). OTOH, Les does present an individual case where I can accept his logic.
I can kind of see that.... maybe its been beat into me too long, but I've a got a fetish for showing correct lighting. So it would take a crazy situation for me to do otherwise.

I HAVE thought about when I would not show correctly, and that's when I cannot (due to a failure) to show correctly. If my masthead went out I'd use a Davis safety-light to show something (360 white), the one case where I agree its better to be seen in any form than not at all.
 
May 24, 2004
7,129
CC 30 South Florida
While traversing Hawks Channel one night I was some what confused for about 30 minutes about two white vertical lights in front of me. Eventually I made out a sailboat with the masthead anchor light and steaming light both on. Visibility was not an issue, I could clearly see the lights in the distance but could not tell if they were off or on the channel or if they were moving or not. The display was confusing and created an unnecessary sense of apprehension while yielding no benefits in added visibility. It was inconsiderate at best to disrupt the calm of a night run. The only thing that came to mind was that the other operator may have been over concerned about fast moving traffic in the channel but we had not encountered any at that time.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,043
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Lighting has been on my mind. 2 goals this season are to sail down to Lewes, Delaware on one trip and up to New York Harbor for another trip. Both locations will feature interaction with some serious shipping traffic. It's not likely that we'll be on the ocean at night, but best to be prepared! I anticipate anchorages at Harbor of Refuge, Sandy Hook, Liberty State Park, etc.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Navigation lighting is there not only to be seen, but to communicate critical information about the vessel. Intentionally providing misleading information by showing improper lights is something that we should only expect from those who seek to benefit from lying, like corrupt politicians and con men.

If a boat's visibility needs to be temporarily improved shining a flash light on a sail will be more visible than a second set of running lights. The downside of this approach is that it hurts night vision.

Maybe we should all get a copy of Charlie Wing's Captain's Guide to Rules of the Road and Running Lights Pattern.
 
Jul 12, 2011
1,165
Leopard 40 Jupiter, Florida
I have many times seen sailboats heading back from evening races with their running lights and anchor lights on, sometimes with or without the masthead (steaming - 225 degree white) light. I think it's funny and annoying. Legally, if they turned off their stern light they could be legal under the small boat exception we have already discussed ((d) (i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in Rule 23(a) exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights.) Anyhow, to me it is at worst confusing to any commercial traffic, and at best advertising they are ignorant. Sort of like driving around with your left blinker on.

Kudos to Scott for getting the white-over-white and green-over-green quiz right! Runner up to All U Get for the mention of Kermit! Where is that frog?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I have many times seen sailboats heading back from evening races with their running lights and anchor lights on, sometimes with or without the masthead (steaming - 225 degree white) light. I think it's funny and annoying. Legally, if they turned off their stern light they could be legal under the small boat exception we have already discussed ((d) (i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu of the lights prescribed in Rule 23(a) exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights.) Anyhow, to me it is at worst confusing to any commercial traffic, and at best advertising they are ignorant. Sort of like driving around with your left blinker on.

Kudos to Scott for getting the white-over-white and green-over-green quiz right! Runner up to All U Get for the mention of Kermit! Where is that frog?
Yep. I hate that. They do that so they can see their windex. That's Protestable.
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Not a mention here of the other technologies at hand, radar, AIS and the basic marine VHF radio. As we traverse the very busy Chesapeake Bay at night we ID boats and if close or on intersecting paths we get on the radio and say hi. You would be surprised how few people have SA out there. A few years ago as we traversed the inbound course to Jacksonville I was on watch, we were perhaps 50 miles out. No radar, no AIS. In my fatigue I convinced myself that the light on the horizon was a star, then I thought I saw it move, convinced my self it did not, then changed course to fall away. Suddenly out of the sea smoke came a large wooden ketch with only a mast head anchor light lit. We were no more than 4 boat lengths apart. I called the USO and asked for course. I actually heard my radio transmit blasted from his cockpit speaker. A guy jumped up from the cockpit, dancing about. Obviously he had fallen asleep. Suddenly his nav lights turned on and the boat lit up. My guess is he was trying to save battery power by not running the proper navigation lighting. bad idea.