Crimpers, Crimp Terminals and Wire, Oh My!

[SEMIJim]

So I'm planning-out what and how to begin straightening out Abracadabra's electrical. I've read the many posts by Maine Sail and others on the issues. Here's what I'm wondering/thinking...

Crimpers. I don't know Ancor. I do know Paladin. In fact: I have a Paladin crimper, with changeable dies, which currently has an RG-58/RG-59/RG-8x die set in it. I'm thinking buy one of these two die sets for it:

or...

The top is listed as 22-14 AWG. The bottom as 22-10 AWG. The top looks more like what I've seen recommended for insulated terminals, but the bottom set has a greater wire/terminal range. This brings us to...

The crimp-on terminals. I can't see the expense of heat-shrink terminals. They cost many, many times what regular insulated terminals cost. Many, many as in: I've seen 250-part kits for less than the cost of heat-shrink kits with only three or four dozen terminals. Heck, for that kind of cost, I'll buy heat-shrink tubing and add it myself.

Thoughts?

Wire... Where to get a selection of wire suitable for marine applications that won't break the bank, especially being as I don't know just what I'll need?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[kloudie1]

These guys have pretty good prices:
http://shop.genuinedealz.com/Marine Grade Wire/Flat Duplex DC Boat Wire/10 AWG Boat Wire Cable RB/
That is the best.. There have been tests that show normal (un-tinned) multi-strand (primary?) wire to be as good IF the end terminals are heat shrunk and have a good grease seal on 'em

 

[kenn]

2029 has the oval look I'm most used to seeing on good crimpers... 2035 looks suspiciously like the sort of crimp done to the plastic-only end of an insulated lug. Were there two sets of drawings for each die set, so you see both sides?

Assuming you're going to buy Paladin insulated lugs, I'd expect that they'd suggest what die set to use.

I hear you on the cost of Ancor heatshrink lugs. i think Maine Sail found another lug supplier... maybe Paladin also has such a beast? As you know, it's easy enough to add and shrink on a piece of heatshrink tubing. When you're doing work for clients who want the best possible, the brand recognition and small time-saving of the Ancor lug is often worth the cost.

Hopefully MS will have specific suggestions for wire suppliers. I haven't sourced marine wire in bulk yet, but I do know that if you can find a helpful wholesaler (wholesailor?) you can often turn up competitive products.

 

[Tim R.]

You also need to decide if you will be using single or double crimp fittings. This will affect which dies you purchase. I recommend the double crimp if you are not using heat shrink fittings as the secondary crimp is around the insulation giving you a stronger mechanical connection between the wire and the fitting.

MaineSail turned me onto FTZ Crimp 'N Seal Polyolefin terminals. I like them much more than Anchor.

http://www.ftzind.com/store/main.aspx

Double crimp dies in a ratcheting Anchor crimp tool. Photo courtesy of MaineSail

 

[tommays]

I used the FTZ on my refit and found them MUCH better and was able to shrink IDs under the terminal jacket as it is so clear

 

[SEMIJim]

kloudie1: thanks for the pointer. I'll check 'em out.

kenn: I'm thinking they're non-starters, anyway. Called Paladin. They're single-crimp. If I'm going to use standard insulated terminals, I'll want double-crimp. Looks like it'll be the Ancor, for me, after all. Oh well...

Tim R., tommays: Looks like FTZ wants you to get an account an sign in before they'll part with any pricing information.

The research continues. Thanks for the follow-ups, guys.

Jim

 

[Deadhead]

+1 on GenuineDealz for wire, terminals & heat shrink tubing.

FWIW I use the Paladin ratcheting crimper w/ the 2035 die set pictured above.

DH

 

[Maine Sail]

Jim,

The Pro's Kit stuff is pretty reasonable and a fairly decent quality. Unless you up the $$$ and get into the AMP category most of the ratcheting crimp tool frames are very similar. The only cavaet with Pro's Kit are that the dies are not very consistent.

Phil here at SBO sells FTZ Crimp-n-Seal crimp connectors

For the SBO FTZ inventory just type FTZ into the stores search bar.

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/search.htm

I now order most of my FTZ stuff through Phil. Just had a $350.00 +/- order of terminals show up a few weeks ago...

These FTZ terminals all came from Sailboatowners.com a few weeks ago and I already need more....

 

[heritage]

When I installed my windlass wiring, I bought from http://gregsmarinewiresupply.com/Zen/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

Fast, professional service, and a good product.

 

[John Nantz]

Seal the terminals

However it gets done, the terminals need to be sealed from the air to prevent corrosion.

The larger terminals are all metal and have sealed ends so all that's needed is some heat-shrink tubing. If there is a lot of wiring to be done then buy the large heat-shrink packages and not the little ones. The bulk packages have a higher up-front cost but over the long haul they are much cheaper.

One bummer about many, if not all, Ancor crimpers is they have plastic covered handles and typically they're made in Asia, like China. The Chinese like to put lead in their plastics so for items sold in California they're supposed to have the lead warning on the packaging (which gets thrown away) and the statement that you're supposed to wash your hands after using.

Pictures: Everybody did a really good job with the pictures and diagrams in this thread. They looked really good.

 

[SEMIJim]

Phil here at SBO sells FTZ Crimp-n-Seal crimp connectors

What's the part count per bag?

Do you have any recommendation or feel for what is the most commonly-needed wire gauge and ring stud size combinations? (E.g.: 16-14 ga., #8 stud.)

Jim

 

[Maine Sail]

What's the part count per bag?

Do you have any recommendation or feel for what is the most commonly-needed wire gauge and ring stud size combinations? (E.g.: 16-14 ga., #8 stud.)

Jim

I think as low as 10 per bag. I usually try to buy 25, 50, 100 or 500 if I can.

The 10GA ring is very useful, what I use the most of, it will fit a #8 screw Blue Sea bus bar but a #8 ring will not fit a #10. You can safely go up or down one screw size & the difference between #8 and #10 is minimal..

I use almost exclusively the 30A or 65A Blue Sea terminal strip bars as well as the AMP Flexi Strip. The 65A bus bars take a #10 and the 30A a #8. Buying mostly #10 rings will cover you for most bus bars or terminal strips except for the smaller 20A (tiny) terminal strips..

For smaller NEMA type stuff I use #6 red rings and the 20A Blue Sea terminal strips that have a #6 screw but I don't use them for anything other than "coms" or stereo speaker wiring etc. etc... Anything that matters gets the 30A or larger t-strips.

This would get you off to a good start:

Red, Blue & Yellow rings #10
Red Rings #6
Blue Rings #6
Red, Blue & Yellow Butt splices
Blue & Yellow 5/16" and 3/8" rings (for batteries and larger bus bars)
Yellow to Blue Step Down Butts
Blue to Red Step Down Butts.

85% of the wiring can be done with those terminals. I have some forks but I only use them when you absolutely can not get to a screw terminal to get it started...


SBO FTZ RING TERMINALS

The "P" in the part number, as in P-25 is how many per bag. At these prices it makes no sense to try and cobble together your own heat shrink terminals..

 

[kenn]

Hi MS, I see lots of butt splices in your order. Do you really end up using alot of those? Just curious.

 

[Maine Sail]

Hi MS, I see lots of butt splices in your order. Do you really end up using alot of those? Just curious.

Sometimes you simply have to. A good butt splice is perfectly fine though I don't hide them behind stuff. I will only use them where visible. Had a job last week where the bow nav light was inoperable. Wire, non tinned, was corroded back into the vessel. Running a new wire from the DC panel to the bow pulpit was going to run the customer about 6 hours+ ($420.00 +/-) of labor vs. splicing in new wire to the old inside the boat and only pulling it through the pedestal, about 1.5 hours or $105.00. Got to clean wire, used DeoxIT and No-Ox-Id and cleaned the cable with s SS brush and made the heat shrink butt splice. It will outlast the rest of the wire. Owner simply did not need a $400.00+job to fix a nav light. There are plenty of items such as Bilge pumps where there is no way around it, same with pre-made factory lighting and other devices with factory made pig tails not long enough to get to a small t-strip.

Some of those pictured are step down butts too..... Sometimes a watertight butt splice is better than a t-strip and rings especially in damp locations. Remember 90% of the submerged well pumps in this country survive on heat shrink butt splices. Our old artesian well was 270+ feet deep and the heat shrink butts outlasted the well pump.... My mothers well pump was 225 feet deep and lasted 27 years with heat shrink butt splices before it was hit by lightning... Boats are a very hospitable environment for heat shrink adhesive lined butt splices when compared to a submersible well pump... My crimp tool puts yellow butts together with 12GA wire and they can support the full weight of a 190 pound adult..

Never understood the concern over butt splices. Sure, in a perfect world I'd run new wire everywhere but sometimes it simply does not make economic sense.

 

[SEMIJim]

Thanks for the info, MS. That gives me a good starting point.

I can crimp 22 AWG thru 10 AWG with the Paladin 2040 die set. But if I'm going to buy that FTZ stuff, I'm going to have to be able to get some of those parts in quantities smaller than 50. If I was swimming in spare cash I wouldn't mind buying more parts than I'll likely ever use, but I don't have that luxury. As it is: I was up to $80 in just ring terminals, and that's with three of what you recommended (blue #6, 5/16" and 3/8" - all of which I can see needing) missing. Add in those, plus the seven butt splice connectors you recommend, and I can see it easily hitting $200 in terminals.

Either that or I'm going to have to use a different product--perhaps the ones from GenuineDealz. They don't mention those being adhesive-lined, however.

Btw: Some of the stuff on your list isn't listed on SBO's FTZ product page.

I don't recall if FTZ makes them, but I wonder what your thoughts are on hook terminals? Don't have to remove the screw, but less likely to slide off than a fork terminal.

Jim

 

[tommays]

I was able to get them in 12 packs at 9.95 to 10.95 and keep the cost in control

 

[SEMIJim]

Ideally, I'd like to see the stuff for the smaller wire sizes and studs in packs of 25, rather than 50, and the stuff for the larger wire sizes and studs in packs of 10 or 12.

As an end-user, rather than a marine electrician or what-have-you: Unless I'm refitting the entire electrical system I'll never use 50 red #10s in my entire life, for example.

Jim

 

[SEMIJim]

Maine Sail (or other): If I wanted to go this way: Do you have a recommended brand or source for quality double-crimp insulated terminals?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[SEMIJim]

So here's what I believe I'm going to do:

I scored a pair of T&B/Sta-Kon ERG-2001 crimpers, similar to these,

but older, with blue handles, for free. A spare pair a colleague had. Can't beat that with a stick! They're used, but not ravaged, and appear to be in quite serviceable condition.

As for terminals: It only occurred to me a couple days ago "Hey! The company for which I work uses a bazillion ring terminals in manufacturing. Duh!" Checked the manufacturing system: 14-16 AWG #10 ring terminal: $0.09/ea. If I go standard double-crimp, I can get much of what I need from work for a mere fraction of what it would cost to buy it at a local store or on-line. The good stuff, too, like T&B and Panduit. Plus I have a bunch of other double-crimp terminations, already, that I've picked up at Ham Radio swap-and-shops over the years.

My plans are: Double-crimp for terminations in areas that would not normally be exposed to water, and to which I have ready access, and single-crimp adhesive-backed heat-shrink for applications that are either likely to be exposed to water and weather, or are not readily accessible.

I've ordered the 2040 dies for my Paladin 1300-series crimp frame and I guess I'll order the FTZ butt and reducing butt connectors from SBO. That means $105 in butt connectors, alone, in quantities I can't possibly use in my lifetime

, but I've done a lot of research, and can't find anything as good at a better price.

When I return to work, from vacation, I'll buy a bunch of ring terminals from my employer.

Thanks for the input and suggestions, everybody!

Jim