I have a strange request. Last fall, we down sized from a 23.5 to a 170. We have sailed the boat twice.The second and last time was a very bad experience. Too much swirling wind and much too little experience on my part with this size / type of boat. Due to financial circumstances the boat is for sale, but it appears we will be keeping her due to lack of interest by any buyers. Since so many others praise the boat and it appears I will be keeping her, I want to learn to sail her. I will travel and bring the boat to another 170 owner that would be kind enough to spend a couple hours on the water with me. I would also of course, compensate you for your time and information. I live in Northern Illinois, about 2 hours South of Madison, WI and 2 hours West of Chicago, IL. My day time phone number is 815-986-1374. Thanks.
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I'm in Florida but...
Geo, I've only owned my 170 for a year and four months, but would happy to offer you some e-observations/thoughts. I would have been happy to sail with you for free, but I live in Florida! Would you post the specific situations that made your second trip a "very bad experience"? There are several issues in sailing any dinghy in squirrely conditions that could be coming to the fore. Please describe what's happening on these swirly days and we'll try to help. Best, Mike G.
Geo, I've only owned my 170 for a year and four months, but would happy to offer you some e-observations/thoughts. I would have been happy to sail with you for free, but I live in Florida! Would you post the specific situations that made your second trip a "very bad experience"? There are several issues in sailing any dinghy in squirrely conditions that could be coming to the fore. Please describe what's happening on these swirly days and we'll try to help. Best, Mike G.
Thanks Mike
Mike, we / I had two main issues. 1. We "slid" sideways even with the centerboard down 100% 2. All too often we felt capsizing was inevitable because of the wind gusts. We first tried sailing without the jib,then dropped the main (no reefing points) and rowed to the dock. The winds could not have been much above 12-15, yet we had very little if any control. Thanks for your insight. I did receive a call from Rusty offering to spend some time on the water with me. I look forward to setting a date and learning from him as well.
Mike, we / I had two main issues. 1. We "slid" sideways even with the centerboard down 100% 2. All too often we felt capsizing was inevitable because of the wind gusts. We first tried sailing without the jib,then dropped the main (no reefing points) and rowed to the dock. The winds could not have been much above 12-15, yet we had very little if any control. Thanks for your insight. I did receive a call from Rusty offering to spend some time on the water with me. I look forward to setting a date and learning from him as well.
Pushing Hard
Goe, Following is my post from last year (my first sailing year). With nothing to compare the 170 to & doing some reading I'd have to say for all but the more experienced or adventurous, the CE Rating of 'D' for the 170 is accurate. D conditions are very manageable-and enjoyable! Of course the boat can handle a bit more but better be on the ball or get wet! Oh yeah, if you haven't heard it already & don't have them...get the cushions
Joe ............................................... Mission: Capsize! Submitted by Joe on 10/26/2004 at 07:32PM regarding Hunter 170. My brother Carl, an experienced Hobie sailer, was in town from the Northwest this past weekend. I've been wanting to test the limits of my 170 all Summer but lacked a willing crew. Until now. With air temps in the mid 40's, wind steady at 11-14 mph, water temp at 50 or so, our 2 other brothers spotting from my 13' Whaler, wetsuits donned and the 170 completely stripped, we set sail this past Sunday morning. I secured a fender to the top of the mast for floataion as shown in attached pic (turtle testing will have to wait for another day!) Most of the time was spent reaching with the boat severely heeled. I've read of and know first hand-by surprise-of the tendency of monohulls to round up. This truely is the case. while making good headway, no matter what we did-even with water pouring into the boat over the rail we could not get her to go over. Trying to maintain course and prevent rounding up via the tiller was completely ineffective. The hull does what it wants to do and heads into the wind. Our non-sailing spotters said there were times when about a foot of centerboard was visible before the boat would suddenly turn. What we did find out and is critical to staying upright is hull speed. Read on. We started out full Main & Jib then rolled Jib then reefed Main. We found for the winds we had, the way to go was reefed Main alone for the best control. The boat became more nimble. I decided we needed a little break and wanted to tidy up the reef so Carl headed us up and feathered the tiller to keep the boom where I could work. I was on the leeward side when a moderate gust came along. The Mainsheet was cleated. Our headway was minimal. You know what happened...over we went! Not a hard knockdown but oh so very graceful. After simultanious 'OK's, I turned to see the mast float I rigged was working. Perfect. Proceded to uncleat the Mainsheet (jib was already furled) and swam around to the centerboard. Carl had backed away from the boat a little too far. He couldn't catch up as the wind took the boat and me downwind. Our Spotters were on the way to his rescue so I figured I'd right the boat & hop in. With just a light pull on the end of the centerboard she popped up surprisingly easy (note I had the blue bungee in place to prevent a slam..the board stayed fully extended). At this point, another valuable lesson. After righting, I had all I could do to just hold on. The wind took the boat quickly & forcefully. I could not pull her around. The upright hull just laid sideways to the wind and the wind had it's way. The lesson? Do not right her without having the bow line in your hand. I could have pulled her bow into the wind with the 20' I keep cleated at the bow, slowing her down and maintaining control had I been thinking. If not for the Spotters, we'd have been in real trouble. They picked Carl up and pulled close upwind so he could jump aboard. I just helplessly hung on to the stern and dragged along. After pulling me in we took a moment to catch our breath, trimmed the main and sailed close hauled back to the launch. So the lessons: 1. The most delicate and dangerous time is when you're still or nearly so...stay out of Irons! 2. Practice Tacking & Jibing for smooth transitions with minimal loss of speed 3. If you go over in strong winds, don't right the boat without the bowline in hand. 4. Use the Blue Bungee! A huge help and protects from a damaging slam. I was impressed the rigging withstood the pressure. Nothing came undone or broke. I suppose the boat is made to take it to a certain extent but to see the force firsthand is really something. Experimenting when we could plan and make preparations made the Mission fun, although there were a few unplanned yet very memorable moments. Have to say we had a ball & if you're game, would highly recommend it!
Goe, Following is my post from last year (my first sailing year). With nothing to compare the 170 to & doing some reading I'd have to say for all but the more experienced or adventurous, the CE Rating of 'D' for the 170 is accurate. D conditions are very manageable-and enjoyable! Of course the boat can handle a bit more but better be on the ball or get wet! Oh yeah, if you haven't heard it already & don't have them...get the cushions
Joe ............................................... Mission: Capsize! Submitted by Joe on 10/26/2004 at 07:32PM regarding Hunter 170. My brother Carl, an experienced Hobie sailer, was in town from the Northwest this past weekend. I've been wanting to test the limits of my 170 all Summer but lacked a willing crew. Until now. With air temps in the mid 40's, wind steady at 11-14 mph, water temp at 50 or so, our 2 other brothers spotting from my 13' Whaler, wetsuits donned and the 170 completely stripped, we set sail this past Sunday morning. I secured a fender to the top of the mast for floataion as shown in attached pic (turtle testing will have to wait for another day!) Most of the time was spent reaching with the boat severely heeled. I've read of and know first hand-by surprise-of the tendency of monohulls to round up. This truely is the case. while making good headway, no matter what we did-even with water pouring into the boat over the rail we could not get her to go over. Trying to maintain course and prevent rounding up via the tiller was completely ineffective. The hull does what it wants to do and heads into the wind. Our non-sailing spotters said there were times when about a foot of centerboard was visible before the boat would suddenly turn. What we did find out and is critical to staying upright is hull speed. Read on. We started out full Main & Jib then rolled Jib then reefed Main. We found for the winds we had, the way to go was reefed Main alone for the best control. The boat became more nimble. I decided we needed a little break and wanted to tidy up the reef so Carl headed us up and feathered the tiller to keep the boom where I could work. I was on the leeward side when a moderate gust came along. The Mainsheet was cleated. Our headway was minimal. You know what happened...over we went! Not a hard knockdown but oh so very graceful. After simultanious 'OK's, I turned to see the mast float I rigged was working. Perfect. Proceded to uncleat the Mainsheet (jib was already furled) and swam around to the centerboard. Carl had backed away from the boat a little too far. He couldn't catch up as the wind took the boat and me downwind. Our Spotters were on the way to his rescue so I figured I'd right the boat & hop in. With just a light pull on the end of the centerboard she popped up surprisingly easy (note I had the blue bungee in place to prevent a slam..the board stayed fully extended). At this point, another valuable lesson. After righting, I had all I could do to just hold on. The wind took the boat quickly & forcefully. I could not pull her around. The upright hull just laid sideways to the wind and the wind had it's way. The lesson? Do not right her without having the bow line in your hand. I could have pulled her bow into the wind with the 20' I keep cleated at the bow, slowing her down and maintaining control had I been thinking. If not for the Spotters, we'd have been in real trouble. They picked Carl up and pulled close upwind so he could jump aboard. I just helplessly hung on to the stern and dragged along. After pulling me in we took a moment to catch our breath, trimmed the main and sailed close hauled back to the launch. So the lessons: 1. The most delicate and dangerous time is when you're still or nearly so...stay out of Irons! 2. Practice Tacking & Jibing for smooth transitions with minimal loss of speed 3. If you go over in strong winds, don't right the boat without the bowline in hand. 4. Use the Blue Bungee! A huge help and protects from a damaging slam. I was impressed the rigging withstood the pressure. Nothing came undone or broke. I suppose the boat is made to take it to a certain extent but to see the force firsthand is really something. Experimenting when we could plan and make preparations made the Mission fun, although there were a few unplanned yet very memorable moments. Have to say we had a ball & if you're game, would highly recommend it!Try light wind days
Geo- My immediate suggestion for gaining confidence is to go out in lighter winds. 5-10 mph is a good breeze to learn the ropes on this boat. After you become more proficient at it, you'll feel more comfortable in higher winds. But the boat sails very nicely in softer winds and it's a good way to hone your skills and become more familar with her.
Geo- My immediate suggestion for gaining confidence is to go out in lighter winds. 5-10 mph is a good breeze to learn the ropes on this boat. After you become more proficient at it, you'll feel more comfortable in higher winds. But the boat sails very nicely in softer winds and it's a good way to hone your skills and become more familar with her.
170's doesn't point well under main alone
Geo, Although I haven't read them, I see that you're getting some good responses to your situation. Good to see that you and Rusty might get together for a sail. He's a great guy. On the technical end he's helped me alot, just via email and snailmail, so I'm sure you'd benefit greatly from an in-person tutorial. I've done the 'sliding sideways' you talk about--- but mostly only when the jib is furled (not in use). While some main and jib dinghys do OK under mainsail alone, the 170 is not one of them. It doesn't point well at all under main alone. The main thing is it has trouble "digging in" when the crew tacks and sets and new course. Instead of proceeding and accelerating on the new point of sail under mainsail only, it makes mostly only leeway (sideways movement). I think one of the respondants found (last season) that his 170 was far more vulnerable to capsize at a standstill or at low speeds (like during tacking)-- there should be a thread in the archives about this, 2004 probably. With this said, it's easy to see why you're UNeasy about the slow, sliding sideways/ little headway thing. I would recommend getting some learning time in on a body of water that has enough space so you're not really close to shore-- this might lessen the really puffy conditions you're seeing. Also, I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend that you have reef points installed in your main. The 170 truly was designed around main and jib, and just shortening the main often depowers her enough to make her far more civilized in bigger breezes. Another thing I've benefited from is occassionally using a partially furled jib sail (but I had to tune my rig in order for the shortened jib to work without the entire rig shuttering in stronger puffs of wind). I tuned my rig so that the forestay (the headstay/jib cable) is really, really tight, and so that the leeward upper shroud has only a slight amount of sag while the boat's closehauled. This allows semi-effective roller-reefing (although nowhere near as smooth as roller-reefing a huge genoa on a keelboat)--- since the 170 jib is only 55 sq. feet, it can sag open at the top, even when partially rolled up, but better than not using it at all, in some cases. One more thing in heavier breezes, I sometimes find that the 170 will bear off the wind (to the lee) when overpowered --and leehelm (the boat trying to bear off onto a run and possible crash jibe) is far more dangerous than weatherhelm (when the boat simply rounds up into the wind and safely comes down off of heel). I actually pinch my boat closer to the wind when I find the boat wanting to bear off (sometimes I think the cut and size of the 170 jib causes more leehelm than seen in some dinghys)--- this causes the rudder to balance out. Sometimes even to the point where I could (if I were feeling daring) let go of the tiller and the boat would point straight for a second or two. I've found I can pinch in weather I have no business flying full jib in and do just fine--- jib remaining mostly full with wind and avoiding an emminent capsize. Anyway, I hope even a portion of this helps. I've been known to rant, so take away what you will. Best regards, and happy sails. Mike G.
Geo, Although I haven't read them, I see that you're getting some good responses to your situation. Good to see that you and Rusty might get together for a sail. He's a great guy. On the technical end he's helped me alot, just via email and snailmail, so I'm sure you'd benefit greatly from an in-person tutorial. I've done the 'sliding sideways' you talk about--- but mostly only when the jib is furled (not in use). While some main and jib dinghys do OK under mainsail alone, the 170 is not one of them. It doesn't point well at all under main alone. The main thing is it has trouble "digging in" when the crew tacks and sets and new course. Instead of proceeding and accelerating on the new point of sail under mainsail only, it makes mostly only leeway (sideways movement). I think one of the respondants found (last season) that his 170 was far more vulnerable to capsize at a standstill or at low speeds (like during tacking)-- there should be a thread in the archives about this, 2004 probably. With this said, it's easy to see why you're UNeasy about the slow, sliding sideways/ little headway thing. I would recommend getting some learning time in on a body of water that has enough space so you're not really close to shore-- this might lessen the really puffy conditions you're seeing. Also, I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend that you have reef points installed in your main. The 170 truly was designed around main and jib, and just shortening the main often depowers her enough to make her far more civilized in bigger breezes. Another thing I've benefited from is occassionally using a partially furled jib sail (but I had to tune my rig in order for the shortened jib to work without the entire rig shuttering in stronger puffs of wind). I tuned my rig so that the forestay (the headstay/jib cable) is really, really tight, and so that the leeward upper shroud has only a slight amount of sag while the boat's closehauled. This allows semi-effective roller-reefing (although nowhere near as smooth as roller-reefing a huge genoa on a keelboat)--- since the 170 jib is only 55 sq. feet, it can sag open at the top, even when partially rolled up, but better than not using it at all, in some cases. One more thing in heavier breezes, I sometimes find that the 170 will bear off the wind (to the lee) when overpowered --and leehelm (the boat trying to bear off onto a run and possible crash jibe) is far more dangerous than weatherhelm (when the boat simply rounds up into the wind and safely comes down off of heel). I actually pinch my boat closer to the wind when I find the boat wanting to bear off (sometimes I think the cut and size of the 170 jib causes more leehelm than seen in some dinghys)--- this causes the rudder to balance out. Sometimes even to the point where I could (if I were feeling daring) let go of the tiller and the boat would point straight for a second or two. I've found I can pinch in weather I have no business flying full jib in and do just fine--- jib remaining mostly full with wind and avoiding an emminent capsize. Anyway, I hope even a portion of this helps. I've been known to rant, so take away what you will. Best regards, and happy sails. Mike G.
Thanks!!!
Mike & others: Your insight and suggestions ARE VERY helpful. I have not had the opportunity to set a date with Rusty as yet, but, I agree that time on the water with someone having confidence and experience is what is needed. I should have had the dealer provide this service, but did not expect such a steep learning curve when going to lighter and smaller boat. IF we get some calm winds next week, I'll try the boat again. Sadly, my wife has very little interest in getting on the boat. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again guys!
Mike & others: Your insight and suggestions ARE VERY helpful. I have not had the opportunity to set a date with Rusty as yet, but, I agree that time on the water with someone having confidence and experience is what is needed. I should have had the dealer provide this service, but did not expect such a steep learning curve when going to lighter and smaller boat. IF we get some calm winds next week, I'll try the boat again. Sadly, my wife has very little interest in getting on the boat. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again guys!
Test-sails and sales!
Geo, Glad our advice is helpful. That's why I love this site! --The best comment I've seen is that it takes time to learn a new boat's ways, and I KNOW that you'll learn more about the 170 and absolutely fall in love with her ways if you keep her long enough. That's not a pressure line, there are tons of great boats out there, but among them IS the 170! It's a wonderfully unique, powerful little boat. On the wife's lack of appreciation of sailing, I thought I was doomed when my wife saw how much non-instant-gratification (setup) time a sailboat takes when trailering, compared to a powerboat-- she wants to go, now, NOW! But once she settled in as first mate, tacking and trimming the jib, helping put the rudder on while prepping the boat on the trailer, untying trailer tie-down, etc., she warmed up to it. Loves it in fact now! Best, Mike G.
Geo, Glad our advice is helpful. That's why I love this site! --The best comment I've seen is that it takes time to learn a new boat's ways, and I KNOW that you'll learn more about the 170 and absolutely fall in love with her ways if you keep her long enough. That's not a pressure line, there are tons of great boats out there, but among them IS the 170! It's a wonderfully unique, powerful little boat. On the wife's lack of appreciation of sailing, I thought I was doomed when my wife saw how much non-instant-gratification (setup) time a sailboat takes when trailering, compared to a powerboat-- she wants to go, now, NOW! But once she settled in as first mate, tacking and trimming the jib, helping put the rudder on while prepping the boat on the trailer, untying trailer tie-down, etc., she warmed up to it. Loves it in fact now! Best, Mike G.
Words of experience from Mike
I hope you are right about the 170. Right now it is spending too much time in my drive way because of what I have mentioned earlier. My wife liked our Capri 18 (wing keel)and our last boat, the Hunter 23.5, but I'm afraid the smaller boat just scares her too much. She does not like PFD's, heeling, etc.
I hope you are right about the 170. Right now it is spending too much time in my drive way because of what I have mentioned earlier. My wife liked our Capri 18 (wing keel)and our last boat, the Hunter 23.5, but I'm afraid the smaller boat just scares her too much. She does not like PFD's, heeling, etc.
Heeling
Can't help you on the heeling issue without recommending nothing but steady light breezes out in the open well away from shore. One suggestion is to sail where course can be maintained for quite a while...will allow time for adjustment. As for PFD's, when we wear one my wife
Can't help you on the heeling issue without recommending nothing but steady light breezes out in the open well away from shore. One suggestion is to sail where course can be maintained for quite a while...will allow time for adjustment. As for PFD's, when we wear one my wife
Blue bungees?
Took the boat out last week with the wife and kids--about 10 knots of blow--regretted taking the motor because we didn't need it and it was just dead weight. What a gas! The kids and the wife were roaring. A perfect day in Georgia. So, what's this about the blue bungees? Where do I get some? And why...?
Took the boat out last week with the wife and kids--about 10 knots of blow--regretted taking the motor because we didn't need it and it was just dead weight. What a gas! The kids and the wife were roaring. A perfect day in Georgia. So, what's this about the blue bungees? Where do I get some? And why...?
Blue Bungee
Use from the padeye just forward of the Mainsheet Lower Block to one of the stainless straps on the top of the Centerboard (there are 2 straps together). One should already have a pulley (block) attached to it, the other is for the Bungee. Connect to Centerboard once it's lowered. Bungee keeps the Centerboard extended in the event of capsize preventing damage from board slamming into hull. Plus you need board extended for leverage & counterweight to rite the boat. See a Dealer or call Hunter & order 2 or 3. They work great to tidy up taken down rigging for trailering or storage. Just the right size. Non corroding clips. Rugged & Durable. Remember to disconnect bungee before trying to raise Centerboard! Joe
Use from the padeye just forward of the Mainsheet Lower Block to one of the stainless straps on the top of the Centerboard (there are 2 straps together). One should already have a pulley (block) attached to it, the other is for the Bungee. Connect to Centerboard once it's lowered. Bungee keeps the Centerboard extended in the event of capsize preventing damage from board slamming into hull. Plus you need board extended for leverage & counterweight to rite the boat. See a Dealer or call Hunter & order 2 or 3. They work great to tidy up taken down rigging for trailering or storage. Just the right size. Non corroding clips. Rugged & Durable. Remember to disconnect bungee before trying to raise Centerboard! Joe
PFD's
Ah, you've GOT to "like" PFD's if you're a dinghy sailor, unfortunately! But is the uncomfortable fit of most PFD's not as big of an issue as the heeling is for her? I know that some folks become far more uneasy than others when the world's on its side! I think the heeling issue mostly boils down to how much sail one is carrying in a given breeze. Even the 170 stays (relatively) on its feet when properly reefed. Mike G.
Ah, you've GOT to "like" PFD's if you're a dinghy sailor, unfortunately! But is the uncomfortable fit of most PFD's not as big of an issue as the heeling is for her? I know that some folks become far more uneasy than others when the world's on its side! I think the heeling issue mostly boils down to how much sail one is carrying in a given breeze. Even the 170 stays (relatively) on its feet when properly reefed. Mike G.
Thanks--got a photo?
Joe, thanks. For some reason I'm having trouble visualizing this--you wouldn't have a photo would you?
Joe, thanks. For some reason I'm having trouble visualizing this--you wouldn't have a photo would you?
Pic for Dan
Attach one end of bungee to padeye just forward of the Mainsheet Lower Block as shown and the other end to the empty stainless strap on the top of the Centerboard after the cb is lowered. (one strap already has a pulley attached to it, the other is for the Bungee). Bungee keeps the Centerboard extended down in the event of capsize preventing damage from board slamming into hull. Plus you need cboard extended for leverage & counterweight to rite knocked down boat. See a Dealer or call Hunter & order 2 or 3. They work great to tidy up taken down rigging for trailering or storage. Just the right size. Non corroding clips. Rugged & Durable. Remember to disconnect bungee before trying to raise Centerboard! Joe
Attach one end of bungee to padeye just forward of the Mainsheet Lower Block as shown and the other end to the empty stainless strap on the top of the Centerboard after the cb is lowered. (one strap already has a pulley attached to it, the other is for the Bungee). Bungee keeps the Centerboard extended down in the event of capsize preventing damage from board slamming into hull. Plus you need cboard extended for leverage & counterweight to rite knocked down boat. See a Dealer or call Hunter & order 2 or 3. They work great to tidy up taken down rigging for trailering or storage. Just the right size. Non corroding clips. Rugged & Durable. Remember to disconnect bungee before trying to raise Centerboard! Joe
Pic for Dan--Thanks!!
Joe--Thanks for the pic. I was away for a few days and was "sailless" as a consequence. I'll get some of those bungees and try the rig. I got to the Lake late yesterday on my own to clean my boat up. It was gorgeous--about 5-7 knots of wind. There was one other sail boat out there--did I go sailing? Heck no!!! Been kicking myself ever since. Wife said--did you go out solo, it was gorgeous? I said no. She said why not? I said--coz I'm an idiot. I'll try agin this weekend I think. Since it's Father's Day I think I get to pick what I want to do--If I can only get out ahead of the thunderboomers...
Joe--Thanks for the pic. I was away for a few days and was "sailless" as a consequence. I'll get some of those bungees and try the rig. I got to the Lake late yesterday on my own to clean my boat up. It was gorgeous--about 5-7 knots of wind. There was one other sail boat out there--did I go sailing? Heck no!!! Been kicking myself ever since. Wife said--did you go out solo, it was gorgeous? I said no. She said why not? I said--coz I'm an idiot. I'll try agin this weekend I think. Since it's Father's Day I think I get to pick what I want to do--If I can only get out ahead of the thunderboomers...
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