Collision at sea

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,773
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Capra, your facts are incorrect. Enterprise passed through the Golden Gate Bridge and the San Francisco Oakland bay bridge no sweat. She had an engineering casualty and lost the two stud shafts making the port turn into alameda very difficult. A slight flood tide and silting caused by recent heavy rains exacerbated the situation. The XO at the time urged the captain to drop anchor. They did run aground several hundred yards short of the turning basin. The XO and I had a long talk about it as he was later CO of Eisenhower when I was aboard with the air wing.
Interesting. And strange.
I was there and I saw it happen, including the diving operations to repair the underwater cables the ship cut when it grounded on the north side of the Golden Gate Bridge, heading for sea, and yet I can find nothing about the incident online. It was a decade or two before the 1983 grounding. I wasn't anywhere near Frisco in 1983. I don't know what to say.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
You seem to have missed a few things... So I'll remind you. I served on TWO DDG class warships, hulls 59 and 69, the same exact class of ship and mission as USS Fitzgerald. I am quite familiar with the ship's speed & acceleration, where you are obviously not.
Also, you must have missed this; "What is factual at this moment is that a Commanding Officer is always accountable for the actions of his crew and responsible for the safety of the ship. No matter who's 'fault' this is, seven of our shipmates, (sons, brothers, fathers) are lost. The Captain will be relieved of command."
By the way, I also ride and have raced 1000cc motorcycles too.
There still isn't enough facts known about the circumstances for any of us to draw conclusions, and its perfectly ok to ask questions, but stop being so dismissive and judgmental about circumstances you are not experienced in.

Do you know what the actual top speed of a DDG is? It ain't 45 knots...
The original comment which you reacted to was the question as to the possibility of a terrorist act, to which my response was that it isn't outside the realm of possibility. .
In point of fact, the listed speed of the USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) is "well over 30 knots". From personal experience I also know for a fact that the US military does not make public anything like the maximum speed their warships can achieve. Therefore, "well over 30 knots" could possibly be in the 40 knot range. Secondly, the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer is an extremely nimble vessel, certainly capable of getting out of the way of some lumbering container vessel. http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-fault/.
As a terrorist attack, this would pretty much be like trying to collide with a 1000cc motorcycle on a tricycle, IMO. So this container ship is just roaming the seas hoping and praying some US Navy ship will blindly just let them run them down? A far fetched scenario at best.
Of course, in these times of alternate facts and fake news, I guess it isn't outside the realm of possibility.
 
Nov 30, 2015
1,337
Hunter 1978 H30 Cherubini, Treman Marina, Ithaca, NY
We are talking about Rules of the Road and mostly civilian industry navigation equipment. Anything I post here regarding the DDG class ship capabilities is public domain (can be looked up in Jane's Fighting Ships).
So, if both ships were running dark, no nav lights (for whatever reason, especially in a busy seaway) or only one was running dark at 1:30 am, I think the Rules of the Road don't apply. I like the theory about Crystal crew being asleep and the autopilot controlling the ship. I would think that the lights on the freighter would have been lit, especially if I'm at the helm and feel a bit sleepy. My ship is big and slow (although 18.5 knots is not slow in my mind) and just a little nap would feel good. Oops, what was that, we hit something (red point 1 on @CloudDiver plot) crap maybe I forgot the nav lights on my shift. Better wake the Captain. In the meantime the autopilot, still engaged, makes a very quick adjustment to original course after the glancing blow. Not t-boned. Then it takes an hour or so to come to a conclusion about damage and contact with the parent company and coast guard. Captain orders return to impact coordinates. All hell breaks loose. Of course this becomes a human error root cause...just my opinion....and my sympathies to the families and friends of the 7 departed sailors.
 
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Mikem

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Dec 20, 2009
820
Hunter 466 Bremerton
Capta, Enterprise also struck a reef west of San Diego known as Bishop's Rock. She continued underway. I can't remember where she was repaired, Hunters Point SF, Ca, or Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, Bremerton, Wa., but in any case truck size boulders were removed from the hull. It happened during night flight ops. A friend of mine was on short final in his A-6 Intruder when he was waved off and diverted to NAS Miramar, San Diego due to the striking of the reef. A few more yards to port ( their course was about 310 true) and the hull would have been ripped out. Later, as ships navigator on Nimitz when conducting flight ops in that vicinity I made sure we never passed within 10 nm of the lighted navaid marking the reef. The navigator I relieved on Nimitz was the pilot of the A-6 who had been waved off.
 
Oct 1, 2007
1,858
Boston Whaler Super Sport Pt. Judith
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
Just to give you all an idea of how fast things can go wrong, this is an audio recording from the bridge of the collision between USS Porter (DDG 78) and a tanker near the Straight of Hormuz in 2012. really gets your heart racing just listening to it;
http://gcaptain.com/intense-bridge-conversation-porter/
The link includes a picture of the Porter. Which made me realize that the Porter and Fitzgerald were struck at almost precisely the same location on the ships. And with similar damage.
 
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Nov 30, 2015
1,337
Hunter 1978 H30 Cherubini, Treman Marina, Ithaca, NY
The link includes a picture of the Porter. Which made me realize that the Porter and Fitzgerald were struck at almost precisely the same location on the ships. And with similar damage.
After hearing this audio track, I'm leaning towards OOD training and whether a partial college degree, and a few months of training is enough to give full control of a $1B destroyer to the "Kids"?
 

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,773
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Also, you must have missed this; "What is factual at this moment is that a Commanding Officer is always accountable for the actions of his crew and responsible for the safety of the ship.
Missed?
More like ignored.
Having held two all oceans, unlimited tonnage, master's certificates of competency in my career and as a still licensed working captain at 70, I hardly think I need be reminded of my daily professional responsibilities.
 
Oct 1, 2007
1,858
Boston Whaler Super Sport Pt. Judith
After hearing this audio track, I'm leaning towards OOD training and whether a partial college degree, and a few months of training is enough to give full control of a $1B destroyer to the "Kids"?
My take on the audio was that the JO who had the con at the time was in fact the best head on the bridge. He was practically begging the Captain to maneuver and slow down, but the Captain actually overrode the OOD and refused to maneuver. Without relieving him I might add. I imagine the JO ended up taking enough blame for the collision to pretty much end any ambitions he may have had for higher rank. The JO kept repeating "...I'd like to...." rather than giving the order. Tough spot for him to be in, but that's how future admirals are made. To me this is very similar to aircraft accidents where the PIC ignores suggestions from the 1st officer which, if taken, may have saved the day. That's one of the reasons the FAA instituted the Cockpit Resource Management (CRM) training.
 
Feb 14, 2014
7,421
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Just a guess....

Crystal: Hard a Port... No No, the other Port!!!!

USS Fitzgerald: Hard a Port.... WTF?

Jim...
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,893
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
From the Alaska Valdez.. "I said hard right, not Bud Light!"
Not to make light of this tragedy but man there was a lot of confusion in the Porter wheelhouse.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
The skipper of the ACX Crystal is out with a statement that they signaled Fitzgerald when they saw them on a crossing course. Threw a starboard turn to avoid collision but it was not enough.
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...viewing-warship-crew-official-says?src=usn_tw
I had been looking for updates on this story but it was quickly lost in the storm of 'other news'... Signaled by flashing lights 10 minutes before collision? Looks like we are back to the age old question; who was the stand-on vessel and who was the give-way vessel?
 
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Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Fundamental rule. Maneuvering at night in traffic, NEVER TURN TO PORT
Rick
Absolutes will get you in trouble. You need situational awareness, and readiness to make a decision based upon the conditions. If your about to be hit amidships by a vessel approaching you from starboard, why would you turn into the oncoming vessel?
 
Oct 1, 2007
1,858
Boston Whaler Super Sport Pt. Judith
Rick
Absolutes will get you in trouble. You need situational awareness, and readiness to make a decision based upon the conditions. If your about to be hit amidships by a vessel approaching you from starboard, why would you turn into the oncoming vessel?
In the case of a close crossing with a stand on vessel (not "about to be hit" by a stand on vessel wherein something should have been done earlier), turning right increases the bearing rate, yields to the stand on vessel, and converts ownship into the stand on vessel. Turning to port in that situation reduces the bearing rate and puts ownship at risk for other potential stand on vessels hidden. In the recording above the captain overruled the OOD to turn to port in traffic somehow not noticing there was another vessel hidden. The OOD wanted to turn to starboard, which was the safe maneuver.
Of course there are not always an absolute but I can tell you that in any close crossing where I am burdened, I turn to starboard early. Almost always that is a safe maneuver in that circumstance. Worked fine for me for almost 40 years now.
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
If you are a warship running dark and in stealth mode (no AIS no radio) then you are the burdened vessel. We have these kind's of encounters on a regular basis where a warship passes close in the night and we never saw them...but they clearly saw our little pumpkin seed. There was also some talk that the Fitzgerald was running with a skeleton crew and was not with her CVN group. Odd.
 
Jan 4, 2010
1,037
Farr 30 San Francisco
The crystal was signaling continuously. It is called AIS, name of the vessel, course, speed, rate of turn, destination and maybe some other stuff. Seems the Fitz doesn't have AIS? My $200 radio with integrated AIS spits out collision warnings. It is receive only so no "OPSEC" (whoo!) concerns.

So the lookout system failed, the AIS system failed, the radar system failed, probably some other stuff as well.

We don't know why it happened but pretty sure the Pentagon knows the track of that ship to within yards. The crystals track is public. So who was the burdened vessel is surly known. The silence from the Navy IMHO indicates who it likely was.
 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
If you are a warship running dark and in stealth mode (no AIS no radio) then you are the burdened vessel. We have these kind's of encounters on a regular basis where a warship passes close in the night and we never saw them...but they clearly saw our little pumpkin seed. There was also some talk that the Fitzgerald was running with a skeleton crew and was not with her CVN group. Odd.
Gunni, Fitz is a BMD Destroyer, they never run in Battle Groups rather mostly independent ops. Kinda like Boomers on patrol, but its an anti-ICBM patrol.
 
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