Collision at sea

Dec 1, 1999
2,391
Hunter 28.5 Chesapeake Bay
I know this is a sailing blog, and I mourn the loss of life in the recent collision of the US Navy vessel and the container ship off Japan, but given modern nav and anti-collision devices both ships must have been using, I look forward to learning how this tragedy could have happened.
 

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Very simple; Too Many Cooks in the Kitchen Spoil the Broth.
I also mourn the loss of life and injuries, but the US Navy has a history of unnecessary accidents caused by this particular problem.
Heck, the carrier Enterprise missed the center span of the Golden Gate Bridge some years back and went aground. And the Honda Point disaster, plus plenty more. Absolutely no excuse for those either.
 

Tsam

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Jun 28, 2011
30
S2 6.8 Long Lake, MN
Very strange circumstances. In 1970 aboard the USS Little Rock, a "light cruiser" much larger than a destroyer, we collided with a Greek destroyer in the Med and had to divert to Malta for repairs. Our damage was to our bow, the destroyer's damage was very similar to the Fitzgerald's mid section damage. It happened early in the morning, I slept through it and woke up with all engines off.
Story is we had right of way and Greek destroyer didn't acknowledge, we turned at the last minute to avoid cutting the destroyer in two! No one injured.
 
Jun 10, 2017
174
Catalina 1980 Catalina 30 Mk II John's Pass / Tampa Bay
I don't get it.
The container ship does a 180???
What's that all about?

I hate to say this but, with present day radar & alarms incl. a full bridge staff,
This doesn't make any sense.

So, not wanting to create any conspiracy theories but, as strange as it unfolded, I wonder
if this will ultimately be considered a terrorist act.

This is just my take on the 180 turn-a-round.
 

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
He is actually not wrong... it is within the realm of possibility.
Oh please!
When you are on a boat that can probably get pretty close to 45 knots (or more?), there's no way an 18 knot container ship could possibly be a terrorist weapon, unless the crew of the navy ship was totally incompetent.
 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Oh please!
When you are on a boat that can probably get pretty close to 45 knots (or more?), there's no way an 18 knot container ship could possibly be a terrorist weapon, unless the crew of the navy ship was totally incompetent.
No, they can't do 45 knots... You are also restricted by what plant configuration you have at the time. I would know, I was an Officer on two DDG class ships between 2002 and 2009. You should see my posts on the other thread.
 

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
No, they can't do 45 knots... You are also restricted by what plant configuration you have at the time. I would know, I was an Officer on two DDG class ships between 2002 and 2009. You should see my posts on the other thread.
So you are saying some old container ship can out run and out maneuver a US Navy warship? If that's true, then that's pretty pathetic!
No, this was hardly terrorism, just total incompetence on the part of those operating the warship!
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
So you are saying some old container ship can out run and out maneuver a US Navy warship? If that's true, then that's pretty pathetic!
No, this was hardly terrorism, just total incompetence on the part of those operating the warship!
You obviously don't know the capabilities and limitations of the DDG class warship, I do. What we both don't know is all of the facts, so jumping to conclusions benefits no one. I'm not doubting that there may have been negligence on the part of the Fitz Bridge team, but I also don't doubt (as reported in currently available news) that the container ship crew was asleep at the wheel with the ship on auto-pilot; this I know to be common from first-hand experience while standing watch on that class of warship. Hailing them does nothing when no one is listening. Also, they may have been at split plant or worse at trail shaft plant configuration (both of which are the wrong choice while maneuvering around major shipping lanes), which limits both top speed and acceleration. Do you know what the actual top speed of a DDG is? It ain't 45 knots...
The original comment which you reacted to was the question as to the possibility of a terrorist act, to which my response was that it isn't outside the realm of possibility. There are documented cases of intentional grounding/collision where the hand on the helm executed a malicious act, so politically/religiously charged intentions should not be dismissed as conspiracy theory.
The public is not yet aware of all the facts in the case, so let's jump to conclusions about who was negligent. What is factual at this moment is that a Commanding Officer is always accountable for the actions of his crew and responsible for the safety of the ship. No matter who's 'fault' this is, seven of our shipmates, (sons, brothers, fathers) are lost. The Captain will be relieved of command.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
This is the AIS track from ACX Crystal that is floating around several news sources, the colored numbers are my additions only as points for discussion.
Some reports say the Crystal 'transponder' was off. This appears to be untrue since we have this AIS track information, however AIS is not the only type of transponder that can generate this kind of data. Anyway, course and speed is not available for each point.
I also do not have a scale for this image.
I also do no have the course/speed and way points of the USS Fitzgerald during this same time period.

Point 1 in Red is where news sources are generally reporting that the collision took place.
Point 2 in yellow is the 180 degree turn, initially claimed was executed before the collision. Now reporting says the turn was executed after the collision to investigate what the containership hit. This would be in agreement with the generally accepted point of collision, red point 1.
Point (or area) 3 in yellow; This is where thing get fuzzy. I believe this are the erratic turns and another 180 degree turns which the US Navy sources initially reported that Crystal had made prior to the collision.
Point 4 in Red - I believe this is where the actual collision took place.

ACX Crystal may have had both AIS transponder and Nav lights turned off, but the track data above proves that something was transmitting the ships position. Considering the reports of auto-pilot issues, I believe the erratic turns have everything to do with the Crystal having an autopilot system failure and trying to regain control or reset the system. I believe its also possible they may have hit something else at point one, a vessel that has not been reported missing yet.

USS Fitzgerald could have been in a number of combat systems configurations where SPY-1 radar is shut down and NAV lights are off. It's a very long explanation as to how many possible scenarios there are where any one or all of these are shut down intentionally or possibly were not working (yes, warships do that stuff ALL the time).

I think the most critical analysis will fall on the Rules of the Road scenario... Was this a passing or over-taking situation? It is possible both vessels had a different perception of whom was stand-on and whom was give-way.

If you want to talk the one hour time difference of reporting; When a US Navy ship advances or retards clocks when passing into new time zones it usually done on night watches even if actually 'crossing the line' actually takes place the next day. It is possible the clocks of the two ships were not in synch, but track data from both ships should be shown in Zulu (GMT).
 

Attachments

Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
Not directed at any one person as we have many here who served, but may I just remind those that do know about things military, they should not be enticed to discuss information that is not in the public domain. I am sure you know exactly what I mean. Thanks!
 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Not directed at any one person as we have many here who served, but may I just remind those that do know about things military, they should not be enticed to discuss information that is not in the public domain. I am sure you know exactly what I mean. Thanks!
We are talking about Rules of the Road and mostly civilian industry navigation equipment. Anything I post here regarding the DDG class ship capabilities is public domain (can be looked up in Jane's Fighting Ships).
 
Jun 10, 2017
174
Catalina 1980 Catalina 30 Mk II John's Pass / Tampa Bay
From what I have read, the USS Fitzgerald is capable of only 30KTS.
But this is not what I question, what I ask is:

1.) Why was there almost an hour delay before the container ship reported the collision?
2.) Why the 180° turn-a-round?

I am NOT a conspiracy nut, but based on normal protocols & advanced warning systems,
why did 7 sailors have to die?

Something feels rotten in Denmark guys.
 

Mikem

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Dec 20, 2009
820
Hunter 466 Bremerton
Capra, your facts are incorrect. Enterprise passed through the Golden Gate Bridge and the San Francisco Oakland bay bridge no sweat. She had an engineering casualty and lost the two stud shafts making the port turn into alameda very difficult. A slight flood tide and silting caused by recent heavy rains exacerbated the situation. The XO at the time urged the captain to drop anchor. They did run aground several hundred yards short of the turning basin. The XO and I had a long talk about it as he was later CO of Eisenhower when I was aboard with the air wing.
 
May 6, 2004
196
- - Potomac
1) Crystal's captain would be evaluating the post-collision integrity of his own hull and systems, communicating with Fitzgerald and probably his own boss before he called the Coast Guard.

2) You hit something, you turn around and go back and find what you hit.

It's way too soon for anything rotten in Denmark.
 
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capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Do you know what the actual top speed of a DDG is? It ain't 45 knots...
The original comment which you reacted to was the question as to the possibility of a terrorist act, to which my response was that it isn't outside the realm of possibility. .
In point of fact, the listed speed of the USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) is "well over 30 knots". From personal experience I also know for a fact that the US military does not make public anything like the maximum speed their warships can achieve. Therefore, "well over 30 knots" could possibly be in the 40 knot range. Secondly, the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer is an extremely nimble vessel, certainly capable of getting out of the way of some lumbering container vessel. http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-fault/.
As a terrorist attack, this would pretty much be like trying to collide with a 1000cc motorcycle on a tricycle, IMO. So this container ship is just roaming the seas hoping and praying some US Navy ship will blindly just let them run them down? A far fetched scenario at best.
Of course, in these times of alternate facts and fake news, I guess it isn't outside the realm of possibility.