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Catalina 22 Purchase - Interior Condition;Furler Question

Discussion in 'Catalina 22' started by robcooper0767, May 31, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    Thanks. I do the same search religiously, 1987 or newer, wing keel....but it narrows it significantly!!!! And look at some of those prices if boats in that category, with trailer and motor...arrrgh!
     


  2. pclarksurf

    pclarksurf

    Joined Jul 13, 2015
    485 posts, 220 likes
    Catalina 22 #2552
    US Kennewick, WA
    Boat itself doesn't scare me-- lack of a trailer would be a no in my book, but depends on your circumstances. Even with a trailer I've dumped a good 1500.00 in a modest rebuild on the trailer alone. Figure as others have mentioned add $2500.00 to the negative if you have to reach out and grab a trailer.

    You called it- your running rigging is likely 100% garbage-- but someone along the way tried to take good care of her-- shroud boots and other little things suggest she was cared for early, and left for dead recently. Your water could be simply from being left out. C22's are bath tubs relative to water coming in from the topside.

    Obviously if you have time and are creative-- anything is possible, but would echo the fact that if you search regularly you will find C22's all over the place all year long.

    Happy hunting
     


  3. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    Owner put her on the hard in 2014...has been ignored since according to Marina. What you point out is why she interested me in the first place...even her main felt very stiff. Can't figure out the furler. Only 2 owners since new and 2nd owner moved up in size two times since 2014...must be nice to have that much play money to leave her in the dust (and water).
    That's why the thoughts of resurrection....
     


  4. Gene Neill

    Gene Neill

    Joined Sep 30, 2013
    2,381 posts, 883 likes
    C-22, Albin Vega
    US central Florida
    I can see your pics alot better on a computer than I could on my iPhone, I'll tell you that much! Random thoughts:

    I know NOTHING about furlers, sorry.

    I'd spend $250, if I trusted the surveyor. Just for the moisture readings alone. Core rot is not something I want to deal with. Ever.

    So let's see ... a grand for the boat, $250 for the survey, lets say $500 for the necessary wood (twice that if you're buying it ready made). The motor doesn't run, looks like a replacement job, $1500. All new new running rigging, just guessing here ... $400? Trailer, prolly $2500 minimum. New battery, call it $100.

    You're up to $6250 and climbing.

    What condition are the sails in? Are the interior cushions salvageable?

    And WTF is that hole in the hull??
     


    Leeward Rail likes this.
  5. Hardhead

    Hardhead

    Joined Apr 11, 2017
    178 posts, 52 likes
    Catalina C22
    US Solomon's Island, MD
    I was really wondering that myself - maybe a discharge for the sink, given it can't drain into the keel trunk on a wing keel? Looks like it might be missing part of a seacock though, if that is it.
     


    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  6. Jacktar

    Jacktar

    Joined Sep 14, 2014
    630 posts, 225 likes
    Catalina 22
    US Pensacola, Florida
    I agree with the rest of the guys, you should be able to find a c22 in good shape, not an instant project, on a trailer with sails and a motor of some sort for around 2500 or so.
     


  7. Gene Neill

    Gene Neill

    Joined Sep 30, 2013
    2,381 posts, 883 likes
    C-22, Albin Vega
    US central Florida
    Hmm, good guess! It's definitely in the right spot.
     


  8. Gene Neill

    Gene Neill

    Joined Sep 30, 2013
    2,381 posts, 883 likes
    C-22, Albin Vega
    US central Florida
    Not a New Design, which is what Rob is looking for. Those are usually asking anywhere from 5-8K (and more) in decent shape for boat, motor, and trailer. And the wing keel is a huge plus if he's gonna keep it in the salt for long periods. Hard to find those.

    I would probably not have given up on this boat yet ... pending moisture readings. Everyone's different though.

    Nice boat in Florida, if anyone's looking for a Mk II swing keel. '01 boat w/ 2017 motor and trailer. 10K.
    https://tampa.craigslist.org/hdo/boa/d/2001-catalina-22-mkii-sailboat/6582735204.html
     


  9. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    There might be another reason that the water came in, at the front....the front hatch seal that "isn't".... the seal literally, is torn and there are pine needles that have gotten between the seal and the boat (they were both inside and outside the boat, in the seal slot, see photos).
    I also found a few stanchion screws were loose, were a little bit backed out. I think it was one screw on 2 different stanchions.
    My P30 stanchions were a bit of a disaster, I had to remove and inject as much epoxy as I could to firm up wet, rotted wood. As solid as that boat was, as a 1974, I could only do so much.

    I finally figured out that if I cropped some of my photos, I could get below the 2.4MB photo issue here, so here are a few more, notably, the hatch showing the bad seal and pine needles, the crazed window, and some closeups of the stanchions that display not even light stress cracking.......and the mainsail....it was still crisp, and the cushions.

    I asked Catalina Yachts about that window and he said that this happens and that it's not going to leak, but should be replaced "over some period of time", because it is weaker now, but that it was not urgent.

    Last night, I was still in the same thought pattern as some of you all noted above. Oh, what the HELL am I thinking......especially after seeing all your responses, my P30 experience, and yes, Gene is right in that WK New Designs are not $2500-$4000 with motor and trailer.....Sometimes you can find one for $5-6k, but many have no trailers too. There is a nice one locally, outfitted real well, no trailer, for $5900.....kinda the norm in price locally for a New Design, WK.

    I begin to question whether I want a "bargain" basket case (like I had with my Pearson 30.....pretty much the same story and beginning), or as I promised myself after that boat, "just go get one in good shape".

    BTW, Gene, the standing rigging seemed ok. But, I do not for a minute, disagree with your cost assessment!! Likely, I'm at $5k before I bat an eyelash.

    But, then, of course, I vacillate....well, maybe/why not? Especially since the seal on the front hatch is bad, and the boat hasn't been checked in likely along time.....but, that nagging question of spending $250 or more to find out it's a basket case doesn't warm my heart either. It's still $250 bucks or so!

    I called the marina today and found out that after the boat was hauled out in August 2014, that the bottom paint was done after that, in October 2014......still more mystery here!
    Their records show that the boat was hauled out.....but, she's not sure if that means off a trailer after being driven in, or out of the water (she thinks water, but not sure).
    After that....bupkus, nothing in their records......they will do a monthly check on boats if you pay....not everyone pays, and this one...no.
    I did receive a contact for a local surveyor that has been to the yard for other boats, and they recommend him. Since I'm not buying from them, I feel it's an ok reference.

    So, I began to wonder if the boat got swamped by a hurricane/storm in 2014 timeframe? But, that's a bit of high drama... I think the high up mold/mildew is from the high humidity, and maybe some "run off" from the hatch, but, likely too, the chainplates and standing rigging. So the humidity causing some problems makes some sense to me. And regular old leaking for 4 years....

    This is weird, but something about this boat interests me.....I think it's the price of course, for a great (design, etc.) boat, but also the fact that one of the group picked up on...it seems to have been cared for....IN ITS DAY. And, it's a WK boat. I had my P30 bacterially sprayed and cleaned, and the difference was amazing. Removing all the wood, not worrying about pretty interior, and doing the bulkheads, with potting the chainplate area, butyl the through deck stuff, etc. is enough work in the beginning.
    Also, I wonder if the cabintop handholds have some waterleak issues? Even a little? I know that I removed and resealed my P30 ones.

    Questions: Is the maststep removable and resealable? Not an epoxy type water damage/moisture repair, but a preventative maintenance "reseal"?

    So, I've begun to wonder if I should look further at SK boats. A possible plan I have, somewhat to avoid slip fees and always in the water (James, York or creek to Chesapeake Bay, when we move to the Norfolk area) is to keep the boat in a dry slip, mast up, on a trailer, ready to splash, enjoy, and pull out each time we sail......like the powerboaters do! I likely plan to do this with WK or maybe, SK, with a trailer extension. That way, I'm not taking "family time" to raise and lower the mast each time, etc....NOT what I want to do. So, it's going to either a dry slip, mast up, or in a wet slip. A few of the marinas I've spoken to have waiting lists for dry slips, but that's something to deal with on another day....I have to get a boat first!

    Gene, I hear ya about keeping a SK in the water all the time. Funny, alot of boats I see (without trailers of course), are SK at the pier/in the slip boats.......

    I will likely contact the surveyor today and see if my "$250" is correct for a structural survey. I also asked the marina if they would assist with engine check, as the fuel in the tank is beyond varnish now.....also, likely the carburetor too, but maybe it'll crank and give some idea of whether it's ok or not to repair. The yard will do an initial check (compression, etc) for a 1 hour rate.

    So now, with a little more "ammo", I plan to contact the seller again and ask some more probing questions on the water, damage, hauling, if he knows anything about it. I don't know if he bought it on the hard, after the previous owner had it hauled out????

    WHEW!!!

    and THANKS ALL!!!

    Ok, fire away please
     

    Attached Files:



    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  10. pclarksurf

    pclarksurf

    Joined Jul 13, 2015
    485 posts, 220 likes
    Catalina 22 #2552
    US Kennewick, WA
    what's the price on this one? again, short of massive areas of rot in the deck or hull-- I don't see anything I wouldn't buy..... but drive the price to the ground. The ugly should give you leverage--

    The other option is to spend $ now on a boat that needs little to nothing, but we all know that's a misnomer-- there's always something.

    Anyone diving into a used C22 should assume that you will spend thousands over a period of time to bring her up to snuff-- almost doesn't matter where you start: free boat, medium price boat in good shape, or newer model higher price-- the add on $ amount seems to stay static.

    Be honest with your skill set and willingness to get dirty. Some of us us enjoy bringing them back to life and sailing. The work in and of itself is gratifying. Drive the price down, buckle up-- and enjoy the ride.
     


  11. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    Latest: I finally spoke to the surveyor today, and he and I are on the exact same page.....and, I'm not sure how it happened, but when I told him I was looking for mainly a structural survey and overall condition, he was right on it. I explained the rot, the water, the "rust". He asked if I needed a "full blown" report or would a discussion (or in person when he does the survey) and a 2 page overview do...it would be cheaper. He then quoted for 2-3 hours, no more than, wait for it.....$250!!! I almost fell over.
    I told him I would send him all the photos I took, (more than I posted here, if you can believe it), to include most nooks and crannies, the mast, boom, blocks, etc. He seems as curious as me about the boat, saying, as you all know, that they are very "nice, well built, yet simple" and that cosmetics can be "fixed". Said he would check electrical, assess the mold/mildew, deck laminate, moisture, sails, all bells and whistles. He might even give the outboard a once over, with the help of the yard for gas (water is there). Likely next week. I like the guy and think this is a good move.
    I contacted the owner and sent him the photos, explaining what I've found out, from you all and the marina...and got a bit more from him....no "swamping", and he said the former owner "sailed it in to the marina" where it was put on the hard, so, it may be that this boat, if not in horrible condition (water) might be "reasonable". We'll see.......and I'll keep you posted.

    @pclarksurf: I did more than my share of getting dirty with my 1974 Pearson 30....and won't shy away from the work. I got real good with epoxy, believe me!! That's why I like a thread I found on here about bulkhead replacement and potting chainplate area with epoxy to prevent water intrusion in the plywood....excellent idea (I did that on the P30 stanchions). You should see the before and after photos of my P30 5' fin keel...and my famous homemade PVC rudder bushing guide (to tolerances) when replacing the cracked aluminum rudder cap with a bronze one, new rudder delrin bushings top and bottom of the rudder tube, etc....(required removal of the rudder, etc.) Google P30 Rudder play/slop or P30 bushing replacement and you'll see quite a job). But, some I might leave to a boatyard for peace of mind, like checking or replacing the thru hulls, just to be sure....(modernized the old gate ones on my P30). I don't need to make a dumb mistake that results in me abandoning a sinking sailboat with a wife and kid onboard!!
     


  12. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    I asked Gene this question about the fact that I have been hard over on wing keel. So, if this boat doesn't pan out, what are your thoughts on both....Swing and Wing?
    I will not trailer much, but maybe a little. I'm really not sure how much we will take it other places, but that is something we may do more, overtime. I've read alot of threads, but now wonder if I should consider a swing...
    One other reason I ask is that I have a lead on a swing boat that, of course, has no trailer, but looks in good condition...and might be able to be had for a couple of grand, with a tohatsu 8hp that works! No RF or bimini, unknown sail condition, but it's only about 2 hours from me, so it might be worth a look....I would be keeping it in the Upper Chesapeake for now, but on the lower Chesapeake near Yorktown likely within a year or two (relocation).
    Here's why: I plan to likely to dry slip the boat, on a trailer, like the powerboaters. No need to keep it wet if I can hook it up to the truck or SUV, back it down a ramp and have a sail, reverse when I come in for the day. I would leave mast up, ready to go. I know WK can be a bit harder to launch, but with an extension, likely will be ok. Hardhead said that the rocking on the Swing Keel in a wet slip can, over time, cause issues. I'm used to a fin, but I learned on a 22' Balboa with a swing keel WAY back in the late 70's. I still remember the keel humming at speed when fully deployed......
    So, are Swings more tender? Require alot more maintenance? I've read other threads, but you guys are on it, so give me your thoughts please. I know that on a downwind run, or wing and wing, you can raise it up and really glide!
     


  13. rpludwig

    rpludwig

    Joined May 23, 2016
    549 posts, 276 likes
    Catalina 22 #12502
    US BSC
    Rob, you're on the right track, and the fact that you're not shy about a "project boat" is good. As you know, many more swing than wing, and less $$$. All compromises as you know, swing more maintenance, but not bad once you do the keel job. EZE to beach it, easier to launch and retrieve (I've done both). Wing hard aground can be some difficulty to free up. Our swing with keel up in a wet slip year round rocking, non-issue imo.

    With some patience, a swing w/trailer and motor in good condition should be found for 2-4k as said earlier....wing, more $$$ and fewer to be found. All will need sails eventually as you know, the small stuff like bimini's, running & standing rigging can all be done over time and reasonable money. Yea, a swing will "sing", but you get accustomed to that!

    The fact that you're dry slipping w/mast up is good, less bottom work for sure....and I wouldn't consider a swing tender at all. Simple boat, parts available for everything you may need....keep us posted on your search and good luck!
     


  14. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    Thanks! Great info for me...kinda where I'm going now....I might just take a ride and check out that swing....
     


  15. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    So, I wanted to share what my P30 originally looked like, after I did the companionway, but before I redid all the electronics.....
    Then, what she looked like 1/2 way through the refurb by me...Awlgrip, with awlgrip pin and awlgrip waterline stripe...still had light blue nonskid paint (old and a bit ugly). At the marina....ahhhh!!
    Sorry for the tiny photos, but the finals are the inside (believe me, she didn't look like that when I got her!), and a light gray topside and cockpit non-skid....

    But, slip fees, inboard motor, everything cost more (she had large sails.....I had a kevlar 160, a 110, storm jib and nice main), notice pretty running rigging, nice chrome winches......Ok, I have to say it...damn, she was pretty!! But, I digress....had 2' itis for awhile, but it gets and stays, so damn expensive!!!

    Now MAYBE it's time to bring one of the prettiest girls in the marina, a New Design 22, back into the fold and enjoy her just as much!!!
     

    Attached Files:



  16. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    Ok, this is me, and another of my daughter (then much younger!) on some great days....had to include these!
     

    Attached Files:



    pclarksurf and Gene Neill like this.
  17. Hardhead

    Hardhead

    Joined Apr 11, 2017
    178 posts, 52 likes
    Catalina C22
    US Solomon's Island, MD
    Your Pearson 30 was a good looking boat. Avoiding slip fees was why I was attracted to the C22. Did you check out the swing keel boat, or line up a surveyor for the wing keel?
     


  18. john renfro

    john renfro

    Joined Jun 4, 2004
    18 posts, 1 likes
    -catalina -22
    US fresno, calif.
    hi , in my youth, I used to be of the mind that get "it" at the cheapest price you can, you will spend much money and time on repair and refurbish, but you will have one! now after many years to look back on, I see that you should spend a little more for it because all the time you spend repairing will prevent you from sailing, riding, driving, flying all the fun stuff you wanted to do when you first thought of it. spend a little more up front.
     


  19. Leeward Rail

    Leeward Rail

    Joined Mar 20, 2015
    1,474 posts, 303 likes
    Catalina 22 New Style
    CA SHYC, Lake Winnipeg
    Quick thoughts:

    If the hull itself is ok... without any rot... and i was into spending a lot of time working on the boat... i'd consider fixing it. Not saying I would fix it.. but i'd consider it.
    With any rot... other than the hatch... I'd run away.

    $250 for a hull survey is a good deal IMO.
    We paid to have our C22 fully surveyed.

    You say some stanchion bolts were loose ?
    I'd be worried about any deck locations were screws and bolts are located.
    The sealant they used had pretty much failed on my 87, and even though the boat was reasonably maintained, it had elevated moisture readings in a couple spots. Other than the main hatch (which was cracked), there was no rot.
    This boat looks like it was ignored for a long time. The wood panel at floor level didn't happen overnight.

    I replaced the bulkheads on mine and used the opportunity to reconfigure the galley area.

    If the deck and hull have no rot.... it's doable, but likely not cheap.

    The reality is, it WILL be cheaper.. and faster to simply buy one that is ready to go.
    Would you rather spend the money over time, and eat a lot of your free time... or simply spend 5 to 7k and get a great boat that you can take the kids out on tomorrow ?

    IMO:... The BEST deal on a C22 is Chip Ford's boat. Not cheap, but considering what he put into it.... it's a bargain.

    It all depends on what you prefer to do with your time, and if you want to spend more over a period of time or less tot al cash in one big shot.

    But having owned a Pearson 30.. you know that.. so it's something only you can answer.
     


    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  20. robcooper0767

    robcooper0767

    Joined Sep 27, 2013
    39 posts, 2 likes
    Pearson 30 (sold in 2015)
    US Upper Chesapeake
    @ LRail: I might be one of the only guys that can say he's been to Winnepeg, Lake Winnepeg, and further north to other lakes in Manitoba to fish!! Caught a monster Northern Pike (photo to prove it!!).

    Anyway, 1) got with Gene Neill again on the Swing Keel....probably not a good idea for me since, eventually, the boat will be in the Peninsula/Tidewater area of Virginia, close to the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay. Quite a salt/fresh water mix, but even if I dry slip it, might not want to go the swing in salt water route...so for now, no Swing.
    2) Just got ahold of the surveyor. His assessment from the photos was, alot of wood rot, but wouldn't hesitate to check it to see if the deck is ok.

    3) Now, on to your comments. I SWEAR that you guys have planted "bugs" in my head.....I feel like I'm swinging from one end to the other....
    a) The half that really wants a good boat at a GREAT deal says: "Get it surveyed, if it passes, GO FOR IT!" You'll have a boat with good bones that you can fix, get a trailer, fix/replace the motor and MAYBE you are ahead of the game!
    b) The other half (not my wife, but of me) says: What Jon Renfro and Leeward say (and also Gene Neill's earlier comment)...
    Gene: "Think about the cost being $6250.00 so far"....before the "other unknown stuff"....that doesn't include the tear on the headsail suncover, condition of the sails (Surveyor will help there), other unknowns, etc.
    Jon: paraphase: "Want to play or really do a bones up repair on a boat that will take a year"
    LR: paraphase: "Sail now or fix alot of Sh-t!"

    After the Pearson, I said, never again....I'm back to wondering if I REALLY want to spend $250.00 to find out maybe just OK news and I pass, or it does come in ok and then, damn, pull the trigger or not?!!
    I know this boat can be had for less than $1000.....but Gene's right at at least $6250 and climbing.

    There are a few WKs out there in that range, and like someone said earlier, even those will need "something(s)".....but, I could get one and sail it next weekend. Not so this boat, that's for sure. (I have to get the damn thing home first!).

    I'm starting to lean to a "pass" a bit harder, based on common sense talking in my ear, and the absolute TON of MANHOURS I put in on the Pearson. My wife was not always "pleased" with the time away from home to say the least (it was 2 hours away), at least this one could live in the backyard, or a nearby marina.

    Now that my daughter is 9, has Taekwondo, and talks about getting another sailboat, I am wondering should I bite the bullet, spend some upfront now, and be able to take her (and the bride) sailing this summer and fall......

    I'll keep you posted.......and, you guys are great....

    keep the thoughts coming please...

    Rob
     



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