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Cabin top winches and genoa sail

Discussion in 'Ask A Catalina Owner' started by PugetSounder, Jan 9, 2019. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. PugetSounder

    PugetSounder

    Joined Jul 20, 2018
    7 posts, 1 likes
    Catalina Capri 18
    US Everett, WA
    Hello all,
    I am a novice sailor and owner of a Capri 18. My boat only has jib winches, cleats and blocks mounted on the cabin top.

    1. Can I use a larger head sail without adding another set of winches, cleats, blocks to the cockpit coaming? Currently the block is all the way forward on its track for use with the standard jib and I can't imagine any situation where I would need to adjust it back with this sail. (Maybe a storm jib?) If that is the case, why the track? To my eye, moving the track back as far as possible would still not allow it to work with a larger sail. The shrouds look like they would be in the way.

    2. I have been scouring google images for pics of Catalina's with winches on the cabin top, most have added winches, cleats and blocks to the coaming. Except for the one pictured below. It looks like they have just added a block and then pull the sheet up to the winches on the cabin top. Does anyone have any experience with this setup? My goal is to drill as few holes into my new boat as possible!

    Any advice or direction is welcome.
    Cheers

    My boat's rigging looks just like this except for the block and track located near the safety line stanchion.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     


  2. JohnShannon

    JohnShannon

    Joined Jan 4, 2010
    711 posts, 77 likes
    Farr 30
    US San Francisco
    Well it looks to me like you can. The headsail can have a foot as long as the distance from the forestay to the block on the track in its aft most position. Once the jib sheet has been led through the block how do the winch and cleats know how big the jib is? They can stay in the same position. Consult with a sailmaker perhaps or maybe make your own measurements and try to find a used sail.
     


  3. SG

    SG

    Joined Feb 11, 2017
    1,326 posts, 255 likes
    J/Boat J/160
    US Annapolis
    Your lead to the winch on the coach roof looks like it intended for a working jib directly to the winch from forward through the block ahead of each the winches. If you try to lead from the aft block to the coach roof winch it must NOT rub on the fiberglass.

    Search the web and you'll see winches placed on the coamings with leads that are more proper. If you search a winch manufacturers site, you'll see some diagrams.

    I believe the answer to your question is NO.
     


    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  4. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    7,825 posts, 3,136 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    @PugetSounder great to hear from a fellow sailor out of Everett.

    From the question it is my guess you not understanding the concept of Headsail Sail Trim... your blocks in the tracks establish the “Lead position”. You adjust the block in order to modify the leach and foot of the sail. You do this to enhance the performance of the sail in powering the boat.

    Quantum Sail has produced some good material to help understand sail trim.
    The following clip comes from their website... https://www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/cruising-sail-trim-guide-headsails

    LEAD POSITION
    Fore and aft lead positions control headsail leech tension and foot depth. As a rough guide, set the lead so the sheet bisects the clew, applying approximately equal tension to leech and foot. (An imaginary line extending from the sheet up through the sail would hit the middle of the sail’s luff.)

    In an overlapping sail, the foot of the genoa will just touch the shrouds at the chain plates when the upper part of the sail is 1-2 inches off the top spreader. If the foot is still round and well off the chain plates when the sail is sheeted (so that the top touches the spreader), the lead is too far forward. Moving it aft will stretch the foot flat and open the leech.
    Some call it opening and closing the slot between the Main sail and the “head sail” be it a jib or a Genoa. I’d encourage your reading of this info as it si relevant to the question “why the track?”
     


  5. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    7,825 posts, 3,136 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    This is a smart and worthy goal.
    The location of winches is for the convenience of the sailor and crew. You may decide this as you see fit. I would suggest that you try what you have for a while then if it is not working share with us why and we might be able to suggest alternatives.

    Short of that you are just getting our opinions based on what works for us. These opinions may or my not work for you.

    As an observation. Your boat with sail controls on the cabin top lets your crew manage the sails while you have room in the cockpit to handle the main sheet and the tiller. If you move them to the side combing then the crew would be down in the cockpit and may begin to interfere with the mainsheet and tiller control. On the other hand if you are sailing solo, having the controls closer to where you sit would be helpful. Boat rigging is all about compromise.
     


    Alansails likes this.
  6. PugetSounder

    PugetSounder

    Joined Jul 20, 2018
    7 posts, 1 likes
    Catalina Capri 18
    US Everett, WA
    Thank you for all the feedback.
    It is possible JS is correct and my confusion lies in my lack of understanding for how to use the track.

    With my current sail, I can't imagine ever needing to move the block from its current forward most position. If I did, the sheet would rub against the shroud, which I assume is not desired. Below are two pictures of my jib sheets, one close hauled and the other on a reach. In both cases, if I was to move the block aft, the sheet would appear to rub against the shroud. This lead me to believe the block track was used to adapt to a different sail size.

    However, as I visualize a larger sail wrapping around the outside of the shrouds and moving the block aft on the track, it seems the sheet would rub against the other side of the shroud, particularly on a reach. (Admittedly, it is difficult to imagine the angles, which is why I am looking at purchasing a cheap used sail just to test.)

    This lead me to believe the point SG makes, that any other sail will require a new block, winch, cleat arrangement.
    But that is what generated my question about the need for the cabin top track at all. If I can't imagine a need to move it with the current sail and any other sail will require a new track, why the track on the cabin top?

    I do solo most often. I also cross the sheets across the cabin top and use the upwind winch/cleat, often using the bowstring technique to tighten. This can be seen in the bottom picture. SG mentions that the sheet should not rub against the fiberglass. Is that to prevent wear on the line or hull or both?

    upload_2019-1-10_9-44-40.png

    upload_2019-1-10_9-45-26.png
     


  7. Cowpokee

    Cowpokee

    Joined Jan 8, 2015
    267 posts, 119 likes
    MacGregor 26S, Goman Express 30
    US Kerr Reservoir
    Unrelated to your question, you could use a little more halyard tension when you raise the jib.
     


    jssailem likes this.
  8. PugetSounder

    PugetSounder

    Joined Jul 20, 2018
    7 posts, 1 likes
    Catalina Capri 18
    US Everett, WA
    LOL.
    You are right. Thank you.
    I am hanging my dirty laundry out with pictures like that...but I need to learn!
     


    jssailem likes this.
  9. LeslieTroyer

    LeslieTroyer

    Joined May 20, 2016
    2,161 posts, 870 likes
    Catalina 36 MK1
    US Everett, WA
    All the pictures show routing the sheets outside the shrouds to a winch on the cockpit coming. The cabin too winches may be for halyards or????

    There should be a Capri 18 Owner’s group to help with your setup (the link I found was dead).

    Les
     


  10. LeslieTroyer

    LeslieTroyer

    Joined May 20, 2016
    2,161 posts, 870 likes
    Catalina 36 MK1
    US Everett, WA
    After more reading the early c18’s came with only cabin top winches. Try moving the car all the way back and route outside the shrouds.
     


    FDL S2 likes this.
  11. FDL S2

    FDL S2

    Joined Jun 29, 2014
    255 posts, 115 likes
    S2 7.3
    US Fond du Lac
    What I'm seeing on your close reach pic (along with tightening the halyard) is you need to move that car back and probably outside the shrouds as @LeslieTroyer said.
     


  12. Meriachee

    Meriachee

    Joined Aug 1, 2011
    2,962 posts, 921 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Wabamun - on the orange ball
    upload_2019-1-10_9-45-26.png
    It would appear, if the angle of this photo is accurate, that the car in question is actually too far forward. The sheet should intersect the sail at about the 1/2 way point, simply stated, between the top and bottom. The angle observed here suggests that it's way, way too far up the sail, and moving the can back would not only allow a better sail shape, but make controlling it it easier. (and tighten up the halyard)
     


    DrJudyB likes this.
  13. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    234 posts, 152 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    A larger-than-factory jib , sheeted to the cabin top tracks, will hit the shrouds if sheeted inside or between the side shrouds. If you sheet outside the shrouds, the sail will hit the spreaders, the foot will be strapped tight against the upper shroud , and the upper leech will twist open. The geometry for a larger jib sheeted to the cabin top simply won’t work.

    If you want a Genoa, you’ll need to install a block for the sheet further aft, on the side deck. consult your sailmaker before you install the new block or tracks. If you put tracks too far forward, the clew might be too low for you see under the foot and to be an efficient reacher.

    If you don’t want to spend money on winches, consider rigging 2:1 sheeting. Or get really small winches,that don’t cost a lot, and use a long winch handle

    Judy
     


    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  14. Meriachee

    Meriachee

    Joined Aug 1, 2011
    2,962 posts, 921 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Wabamun - on the orange ball
    The car in this picture looks more along the lines of where it should be, based on what the two operational pictures suggest. You really need to get the sail setup issues resolved before you can move on to the operational issues. The sail needs to be firmly hoisted, and then the sheeting angle needs to be adjusted. Then, and only then, will the other issues be in any shape to be addressed. Being out on the water in any kind of breeze will only complicate things. do it at the dock, out of the wind.
    1987-Catalina-Capri-18_4550_2.jpg
     



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