Buying First Boat - 1985 Hunter 31

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Diane

Thanks Steve

Steve, I hope the owner has your same logic. And you're right, if he wants to sell the boat at all he's going to have to address the problems. Considering the price of a boat this age and size, the repair cost is going to be a fairly large percentage of the proceeds he's expecting from the sale. Also, there's an issue of getting the work done -- we had a rough winter here and I understand most yards are backed up. We don't want to set sail in August! Thanks again for everyone's feedback. I'll keep you posted. We're going to be a part of this Hunter family one way or another!
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
"To Your Satisfaction"

If you take the route of having the owner do the work then you need to specify in the Purchase Contract exactly what the work is. Don't use a term which is ambiguous such as "to the buyers satisfaction" as that language is unenforceable. Instead state what is acceptable. Also, it would be very good to have an understanding between the yard and your surveyor on the work that is to be done, not that after you write something up based on what the surveyor said and then when the yard goes to do the work they "find a better way" do to it - or worse yet, disagree with the fix. This could cause the contract to become really messy. The other thing I'd like to see is a better look at the rigging and mast wiring. Even though it has been surveyed this doesn't mean it's perfect. Ask your surveyor about what he thinks about what I say below. As long as the mast is down this is a really good time to do it because it doesn't get any cheaper. The transfer of ownership, or Sale Agreement, could be executed as soon as the above work has been accepted but before the mast is stepped. This could allow you time to visit the wiring in the mast. If it's never been replaced it is really old and Hunter used automotive wire back then - untinned and no marine grade terminals. Also, the VHF coax does deteriorate with age and especially in a marine environment. The wiring is something an owner could do if you're handy with these things. If not then it'll cost. The forestay is another item I would recommend looking closely at. If it has never been replaced this would be a good time to do it. All the other stays can be replaced with the boat in the water although it would have to be re-tuned but the mast wouldn't have to be pulled. Two decades of marine weather takes it's toll on these things and getting everying up to snuff up the mast would make for more trouble-free sailing.
 
D

Diane

Do you think the boat can be a keeper?

We now have 'boat on the brain' and think about it all the time! So let me toss out this question --considering the big problem with the compression post, and some of the other usual stuff (hoses need replaced, etc.), assuming the seller is willing to make repairs - and we don't know that yet - do you recommend sticking with the boat and babysitting the repairs? We have survey and haul-out money into it but we're not fixated on this boat and only this boat. But we wonder, with the age of the boats we're shopping, are we likely to jump out of one frying pan and into another fire? Are there plenty of early/mid-80's Hunter 30-34'er's out there that are (pretty much) ready to sail? We know we're not buying a new boat so we're trying to be realistic. And we looked at a lot of boats before putting a contract on this one. We do really like the Hunter '31; in fact, we saw three others. [My personal favorite design is the Cherubini Hunter 33, though!] Again, thanks to everyone who's responded -- it's been immensely helpful.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
What's Worse, Once You've Got It.....

it doesn't go away! (been there - done that) Just rambling here, but here's some thoughts: The H-31 is a good sailing boat and has a nice "liveable" layout. The compression post problem is fixable and once this is done that should be it. The keel is iron which will require regular attention to some degree. Lead would be preferable but in this size boat many boats of this vintage have iron keels. Tanks: Don't know what material the holding tanks are but if they're "plastic" this will save problems compared to metal which will have to be replaced at some point in time. Blisters: This is a problem that is potentially expensive and some boats get them more than others. If the boat has a barrier coat this will really help. Age: We bought a new boat because I didn't have the time to work on it. Guess what! Been working on it ever since. If I get another boat it will be used. Q are we likely to jump out of one frying pan and into another fire? Don't know about "likely" but it's certainly possible. Seem like nearly any (make/model) boat will have problems. For example, my H-35 had water leaks (ports and skylights) but I finally figured out the solution and haven't been bothered since. Boats US said our model tends to have blisters but we had a barrier coat put on when new and haven't had problems with that either. Plastic tanks (fuel, water, holding) and lead keel = no problems. We literally "lucked out" when we got her because in moving up from a 16-footer we didn't know that much. Q Are there plenty of early/mid-80's Hunter 30-34'er's out there that are (pretty much) ready to sail? I would say "yes". Would they need work? Almost guarenteed, especially if you like something in "yacht" condition, but good enough to go sailing with. C [My personal favorite design is the Cherubini Hunter 33, though!] Uh-oh, this is going to start something!!!
 
E

Ed Welp

Great Choice

We have a 1986 Hunter 31 and love it. Ours is a schole keel, great for the Chesapeake but don't point up wind as well on race night. One thing to check is the Keel bolts. On the first haul, we found that ours were loose and there was some seperation between the keel and the hull. Had an "expert" tighten and no problems sense. Ed Welp "Alure" Chesapeake, VA
 
D

Diane

UPDATE on the '85 Hunter 31

Just wanted to pass along an update on the Hunter 31 with the serious compression post problem. Unfortunately the broker and/or the owner was unresponsive about the options of repair or price negotiation on the boat, and we really had little choice but to reject it. We tried to get an estimate from the local yard on our own, the broker said he arranged for an estimate through them as well, and we gave him a 'heads up' of what we'd probably need from the owner to make this work. But ... we got no response despite our many contacts. If the owner was not willing to repair or negotiate, that would have been a sufficient answer but we weren't even told that. Didn't make much sense to me ... but now we're back to spending our weekends looking at boats (discouraged but not giving up!) We've paid for one survey and haul-out already and hope to only do that one more time in our search for THE BOAT.
 
M

Michael O'

I'd sell you mine - but....

we still enjoy our Hunter '31. We've fixed our compression post "issue' and the companionway water drainage "issue". We'll be putting another thousand miles under her keel this summer in the cool fresh waters of the Great Lakes.
 
J

John Powell

Blessing in disguise?

I have followed this chain with interest. In February of last year I made an offer on a boat- subject to a survey and sea trial. The boat passed the survey but when we went out for the sea trial, the motor quit before we could get the sails up. We did put the sails up and sailed right back into the slip. The broker tried for three days to get the engine started and running - without success. The seller was reluctant to pay for repairs. I cancelled the deal and got my money back. However, here's the rest of the story. No one else wanted the boat either. I kept an eye on it because it was really the boat I wanted. When the boat was still on the market seven months later, I went back to the broker and made a low ball offer on the boat (25% less than the previous offer), and the offer was subject to the engine being repaired and passing the sea trial. The owner, now anxious to sell and in a more agreeable mood, took my offer. I now have a the boat I wanted at considerably less than I would have paid if the seller had paid for all necessary repairs the first time. So, look around, but keep an eye on this boat if it meets your desires otherwise. I'll bet it is still on the market later this year and for much less. John
 
D

Diane

Michael, you fixed yours

Michael, was the post repair expensive? We are looking at another Hunter 31 that has a lot of moisture coming down behind the bulkhead in the head -- and you can see where the bottom of the compression post is quite wet. The support beam isn't collapsing and deformed like the one we had the contract on -- but something is happening in there. Otherwise the boat appears to be in exellent condition. Again, we're not sure what we'd be getting into. It's one thing to own a boat already and discover that you need a post repair -- it's another to buy something knowing the repair is imminent. We're looking at some other boats as well as this other Hunter 31. We know that every boat is going to have some issue -- and have considered that the wet compression post may be the early signs of something but can be caught before it gets too bad? (Someone posted that they installed a 'weeping hose' to divert water in a similar situation and saved their post.) So much to consider ....!!
 
D

Diane

John, we agree

John, we did tell the broker that if the owner fixed the compression post, even if not until mid-late summer, that we'd seriously reconsider the boat. The other issues revealed at survey were managable. At first the boat went back on the market at the original asking price. Just yesterday we saw the asking price drop 25% (and 15% below our offer.) Apparently they did receive an estimate for the work (but didn't tell us) and the owner chose to reduce the price instead of making the repair. He probably expects this would result in a quicker sale for him than if he put the boat in for repair. There's not only the risk that the repair cost could escalate but there's the time factor of having it fixed. Seems all the yards are backed up because of our nasty winter here. We believe the repair needs to be done now and not after sailing for a season or two. It's tough to walk away from the boat you believed would be yours, but you're right -- sometimes it's a blessing in disguise. Maybe the boat will be sold quickly -- someone else is willing to take on the repair. If not, maybe the owner will reconsider and have the post/beam repaired after all. We're definitely keeping an eye on it while we're looking at other boats. It's not easy being first time boat buyers !
 
M

Michael O'

Buy/Repair vs. Repair/Buy

Diane, we spent about $4,100.00 to repair our compression post problem. If the owner is willing to significantly lower the price of the boat to compensate for your repair cost, I'd say buy it and fix it later. The problem may not be so severe that you couldn't sail with it for one season and have it repaired next fall/winter. You'd need some expert opinion on that locally. Just make sure your budget is ready for the cash outlay, since it won't be coming out of your boat "mortgage" payments! What is the asking price of the boat down to now??
 
D

Diane

Buy/Repair or Repair/Buy

Michael, you hit the nail on the head -- we'd be looking in the $4000+ cash range for the repair pretty quickly. This is in addition to other work that should also be done -- likely on most boats this age (hoses, tuning, etc.) The survey gave us quite a to-do list. We budgeted for what we consider to be the common repairs/upgrades/maintenance/things-you-don't-know-about-yet, but a single big expense like the compression post blows the budget right out of the water. (Pun intended!) Then there's the possibility that they get in there and find more trouble -- the yard and the broker never did give us anything in the way of an estimate. [The surveyor didn't say we couldn't sail it this season and then repair, but he didn't recommend it either. It's a very obvious late-stage problem that we somehow missed the first time around.]
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Mortgage the repairs.

Diane: Depending on who you are using to mortgage the boat, they should lend you engough to finance the repair in the purchase price. You will be reducing the price by the amount of the repair. They should be paying you 'xx' percent of the value of the boat. You should be able to take the difference and pay for the repair.
 
S

Steve W.

Diane, you will probably never be completely

happy with this boat, given the extent of the work it needs. My experience is when you compromise or start with a big problem on a boat, expensive new surprises appear and this repair will always be a concern. Something else I haven't seen mentioned here: someday you will want to sell this boat and if the repairs are not perfect, or the problem shows up again, you are going to take a big hit on the resale value. Keep looking, there are plenty of great boats out there. The money you invested in the survey & haulout is well-spent because it helped you avoid a serious problem. Good Luck.
 
A

Anonomous Buyer

Pricing Survey

In preparation for buying a boat, I've been tracking the asking prices and estimates on actual sale prices for H34's for about a year and a half. There seems to be a significant difference in the people who want to actually sell there boat and those who want to put them on the market. The average price on those sold is between $29K and $32K. The average asking of those that sit on the market for months is between $35K and $45K. As a buyer, I'm wondering if sellers will respond to what the actual market value of their boats is. How do you convince someone that the market will only bear a certain price?
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
But you do not know why.

Anonomous Buyer: The problem with this method is that you may not know the condition of the sale or the condition of the boat. Also a big difference if a broker sold the boat or the owner sold it directly. If these boats had blisters, delaminations or compression post problems that the owner did not want to fix those may be a great price for both parties. The location of the boat is also a contributing factor on the price of boats.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Cheap Boat vs Bargain Price

Pricing an older boat is difficult because condition and extras varies so much. Add to that the market process, that is, the need of seller to sell, desire of buyer to buy, time and place in the market, etc. and the determination of a fair and reasonable price can be difficult. There is a temptation my many to buy the cheapest boat one can find but this is not necessarily the lowest cost alternative. If the cheap boat needs work (deferred maintenance, damage, etc.) then that should be taken into account. A well maintained boat with quality extras that have been properly commissioned should "cost" more but may in fact be the cheapest boat in the long run. Good to new sails, quality dodger, expertly installed batteries and charging equipment or generator, etc. all help add real value, and don't forget to factor in the "commissioning cost" for the upgrades which can be equal or more than the materials cost. How one values ones time is another factor. A bargain price would be where the seller must sell - say death in the family or a bank repo - that's a different story. A "cheap" boat that hasn't been properly maintained could really cost a heck of a lot more in the long run!
 
D

David

Sale Negotiation

Every seller has a bottom line at which they target a final sales price. And just about every seller is going to increase their asking price 10 to 20% because they know that just about every buyer will attempt to negotiate the price downward. Sure there are a few sellers that will not negotiate; however, unless they are very lucky, their boats sit for months to years on end without a sale. To some extent, there are exceptional used boats out there that have many recent upgrades and you would expect that they will command and get a higher sales price than average. Then there is always the motivational aspects of both buyer and seller. A seller who needs cash quickly, has health problems, etc. will obviously be more willing to negotiate to a lower sales price as compared to someone who has no specific time frame in which to sell and who has the attitude that I will sell when someone is willing to pay my price. From the buyer's perspective, again there are those who fall in love with a boat at first site and will pay a premium price regardless of problems that are obvious. And there are those who will look at boats for years before finally finding an acceptable boat at an acceptable price. Boat values have objective aspects (BUC Values, average sales prices, etc.) and subjective values. It's like my old college professor for B.A.101 used to say, " the monetary value of ANYTHING, is what a fool is willing to pay for it!"
 
P

Paul Aubrecht

That was a bunch of drivel from a.....

typical boat broker who are held in the same esteem by me as used car salesman(my apologies to used car salesmen). Equipment doesnt matter?????I own a Hunter 28(yes it is on the market) that has 12000 btu AC/Heat,Lazy Jacks,etc etc and you are telling me my price should be the same as a 28 that is the same as when it came from the factory. You are right about one thing,though,I'll keep the boat rather than sell it for what Joe Blow sells his for if mine is equipped and maintained better. Also,a freshwater boat and a saltwater boat cant even be comparably compared price wise because of the caustic conditions of salt water. Good luck to Diane,though.
 
P

Peggie Hall/HeadMistress

Yes and no...

Yes, it's true that most boats, especially those 30' and up, are likely to be similarly equipped. However, a BIG mistake that many sellers make is trying to recover their full cost of upgraded and replaced equipment. A new engine, deck canvas or sails doesn't add a dime to the value of a boat...you wouldn't have bought them if the boat hadn't needed 'em. So all you've really done is bring the boat back from unsaleable to to saleable. A $1,000 toilet vs $100 manual toilet doesn't add a dime either...the only thing that matters is whether the boat HAS a toilet and whether it works. These things only make a boat sell faster than similar boats with older equipment that's likely to need replacing soon. A generator and central heat/ac do add the value of a boat--not as much as it costs to install them, but more than a boat that doesn't have 'em...refrigeration is worth a LITTLE more than just an ice box. But they're about the only things that do...and it doesn't matter whether they're top of the line or cheap...as long as they work, they're worth the same amount. Good cosmetics and whether all equipment is in good working order--iow, evidence of scrupulous maintenance--plus everything installed to ABYC, UL and NFPA standards, can mean the difference between a boat that surveys at the upper end of the "retail value"--or even up to 10% higher than book--and a boat that surveys only average or below. That you spent $5000 to get the boat into that condition won't make it worth a penny more.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.