Buying a Hunter has been a frustrating experience

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Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,132
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Respectfully Disagree, Paul..

.. and believe this site should encourage participation at many levels, including commercial, that have the guts to venture into this swamp. Dave- and others- have contributed valued insight and knowledge which have added meaningful content. I believe he has every right to express his opinion here as any other participant. He is hardly hiding anything. While I do repect your point of view, I just do not believe this kind of participation degrades the site. Also, MHO. Rick D.
 
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Gerard

You're wrong, Paul...

...this site will be much poorer if we have to endure the absense of "Crazy" Dave. I travelled 700 miles to buy my Hunter from him because of his vast knowledge and honesty. He'll just as soon give you the bad with the good. Furthermore, it took your reply to get me to reply to this post. We decided on a Hunter 26 when shopping for trailerables, over the Seaward 25, largely because of this forum. It seemed unanimous (sp?) that owners of the 26 and 260 loved their boats. Because Hunter apparently showed some bad judgement (which most seem to agree they will address) by subcontracting their work, many of those who loved their boats and Hunter have "jumped ship" and berated the company that made those boats they recently held in such high regard.... But I digress. Dave if you see this please take heart. The majority of readers of this forum, like me, probably check in each day just to see what wisdom (and humor) you will impart next. I bought my boat from Dave, so I know he'll always be there to take care of me, but for the sake of those who don't enjoy that advantage, please don't express opinions that only serve to hurt.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Me too.

Paul: Daves input is only one persons opinion. You can always take it or leave it. It does always give it a look from a different point of view. If he signs onto the site with an alias and you did not know his affiliation would it make you feel better? Probably not. Dave, keep doing what you do best. Tell it like it is in the trench.
 
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Jay Hill

World Cruising Thread...uh...Route?

Wow, took almost my whole day off to read this thread. (Well, two full beers anyway.) I have thoroughly enjoyed the wide variety of opinions and views and have a few of my own. This thread is almost long enough to represent ol' Joshua Slocum's trip. I am a fleet manager for a wide variety of new and used boats from the following manufacturers, some of which are in business and some that are not: Sail: Hunter (of course) 23, 25, 25.5, 31, 33, 34 (Coming Soon: Gregg's Boat????) O'Day 28, 31 Catalina 25, 27, 310, 320 CandC 24, 27, 35 Ericson 32 X 2 Ranger 23 S2 7.2, 9.0 Beneteau 305, 345 Power: Bayliner 26, 30 Searay 30, 33, 36 Carver 350, 42 Silverton (From Luhrs Marine Group) 352, 392 Although I cannot believe that any production builder would allow Bernie's boat to leave the factory, I can tell you from experience that it happens to all manufacturers and in sometimes worse ways. Hatteras is a pretty solid name, right? We just put a 50-footer in the water and it almost sank before we could find the problem. Took three 1850 gas pumps to keep up with the leaks. Hans Christian is a pretty solid name, right? Just had a 43-footer pull out a chainplate while stepping/tuning a mast. Go figure. Anyway, I work on all kinds of boats every day and the Hunters are almost the best to work on and have the almost best construction for production boats. (O'Day still has the best access to all on-board systems.) I've found similar "workmanship" issues in all the boats; poor glass, poor gelcoat, socket left on a hull joint nut because it was in a bind, screwdriver in a water tank, 6 feet of toerail with NO sealant, anchor locker not attached to upper deck (it fell out when we put the anchor in it; shoulda seen my face on that one haha) and a wide variety of less-than-acceptable problems. The most solid boat in the fleet is the Ranger 23. It's a 1974 and is the absolute toughest (and oldest) boat we have. All the rest have some sort of issue that arose from shoddy workmanship. The Hunters and Catalinas have all been repaired easily. The rest, well, are a royal pain in the butt. My point is one already made: All manufacturing produces an occassional lemon. My concern here is the other owners that have the same problem. It sounds as though the mold was bent or set at the wrong temperature and all the boats will have the same problem. I think Hunter will fix that quickly or have a lot of sunken boats. I also have to sympathize with the "grunt" on the production line. Many times employees make recommendations to management identifying a problem. Sometimes the company is so big (Hunter's case), it takes forever for the problem to be rectified. Other times, the manager in charge is not knowledgable enough to adequately take the recommendation and actually do something with it. Still other times, the manager does not know HOW to fix a production problem without spending more money; they just don't have the training or business sense. I find that the usual problem comes not from the worker, not the immediate supervisor, and maybe not the line manager, but from the directors of departments or divisions; the workers want to do good work, the supervisors and managers want to see good work, but the directors (or the next level) never see the work and therefore are not concerned with the product but merely the cost. Ever heard your marina manager complain about not being able to get a dock/hose/line/head/whatever repaired? Same thing. All in all, the Hunters are good boats and even though I would love the "new boat" smell, I cannot see buying a new boat off a production line; I get too many goodies on used boats. Because of my experience with many manufacturers, I will have a custom boat built if I ever get a "new" boat. I will go to a special builder that will take two to three years to build MY boat. Of course, this is right after I win the lottery. In the meantime, I will continue to polish my maintenance skills on the production boats. I am certain that Hunter will fix Bernie's boat. I am certain that Hunter will fix anybody's boat that has this problem. I am not certain, however, that Hunter will recall all 240s, 260s, and other similar hull designs (or same mold) to repair this problem. I simply don't know how recalls on boats work out. If I owned Hunter (or a piece of it), I'd do it no matter the cost. Loss of even one life due to a safety defect caused by my company would be too much for me to live with. Suing is not good unless you're totally ignored (not typical of Hunter). Screaming is not good unless the listener is deaf. Complaining is not good unless your steak isn't cooked right. Moaning is not good unless....well...we all know when moaning is good. Calm, collected, reasonable negotiation is many times the ultimate solution. IN this case, it appears Bernie is getting the attention from dealer and builder that he deserves. Hope all goes well. As for Crazy Dave's input, I welcome it, although I don't always understand it. I've been afraid to ask; I still haven't figured out what a "buzzle" butt is. "Buzzle" is not in any of my dictionaries, english, nautical, or otherwise, but then again, I can't read anyway. From a previous post, I assume "buzzle" is the definition of that portion of one's buttcrack that appears above the beltline when one bends over. Personally, I think a properly adjusted and tuned belt usually fixes this problem for most and eliminates the "half moon" or "buzzle" effect entirely. But that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.
 
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Dave Condon

Opinions

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I appreciate all the responses. I have gained alot of expereince and knowledge over the years by working on sailboats and wish to pass along this information if it can help anyone with their sailboats. I hope some see value in this exchange. Jay, my reference to buzzle butt is due to the fact I have a large posterior end which I got stuck at 1:30 am with my head and waist in the fuel locker while trying to install wheel steering on a Hunter 260. Dave Condon
 
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Don

Steve said it best

Why complain about Crazy Dave's input, whether you like it or not (I happen to appreciate it and hope he will continue.) For all anyone on this site knows, I could be the president of Hunter, a Catalina dealer in NJ, a street bum who signs in at some cyber cafe, or the knuklehead who approved the ill fitting H260 that started this whole thread. There are definately bigger things in life to be concerned about. As with anything on the net, it's reader beware.
 
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Greg Stebbins

What would you do?

Late last week I was contacted at home by the National Sales Manager for Raytheon Marine. There had been some formal or (more probably) informal communication between Hunter and Raytheon marine on the subject of me. Lyle (Raytheon Marine) was not to clear on what he was trying to say but the jest was that I should “cool-it” on Hunter quality issues else Hunter might take their business elsewhere? Now Raytheon is a VERY big corporation. Unless you’re familiar with the defense sector you may not understand how big and diverse it really is. We have many ten’s of thousands of employees spread out across the globe and measure revenue in the many billions of dollars. Raytheon is no. 3 behind Boeing and Lockheed in the Aerospace and Defense business. I am incredulous that Hunter thought to threaten Raytheon. I immediately contacted our Legal guys the next day and had a long talk. It’s interesting HOW I deplore the legal profession so much but turn to consul so fast when warranted – Yes? The distilled version of our conversions (minus the “Mr. Stebbins please calm down” ‘s) are: 1. Raytheon Marine erred in not ignoring the formal or informal request. Our legal Dept seemed to be very interested in calling Raytheon Marine and explaining the Corporation's official position on this sort of thing. I requested that they not as, after I had calmed down, I wanted to handle this on a more personal level, person-to-person. Man, Lawyers do have an aggressive streak- wow! 2. Hunter needs to grow up and come to grips with the fact that the Internet has created a New World. That was their words (spoken from hard won experience if you’ve been following Raytheon and the Internet in the news). 3. I seem to have a very nice civil suit against Hunter if I choose to pursue it. It is apparently a fairly big civil no-no to attempt to interfere with anyone’s employment through any means, and economic corrosion is especially bad. I will state here and now that I have NO interest in pursuing any legal action against Hunter at this time… I then contacted Raytheon Marine (Lyle) and nicely explained the situation to his secretary as he had sense gone to New York (maybe I should have turned our legal types loose on this?). After Lyle, I called Hunter customer service. In 2 separate conversations, I was informed that it was not Hunter policy to do this sort of thing and it would be impossible to identify the culprit in any case. “It was probably a buyer or someone like that” was what I was told. No serious problem identification, no corrective actions planned. Some one at Hunter had left the company open to a reasonably serious legal action and …. No action items! Wow! As I stated earlier, I have absolutely NO plans to persue this thing and I guess I writing this to keep the HOW folks up-to-date. I am reasonably satisfied with the results of my person-to-person approach. But, what would you do? Greg
 
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Eric

Big ears

Well if Greg is on target, I have no reason to believe he is not, Hunter does read the comments on HOW. Dave should be able to express his opinion since he does have a vested interest. All those who own a Hunter also have a vested interest. I'm willing to bet that the majority of the owners wish they had Dave as a dealer/representative. He appears to be willing to call out Hunter on legitimate issues and judging by the comments about him, he will go extra lengths to make a customer happy. This is rare asset these days. I'm sure he is concerned from a personal level but who wouldn't be in his shoes. Dave, keep active. Phil, I'm sure that you wish this thread would die a quick death but kudos to you for not cutting it off. It will die a slow death. Bernie, you are the one who has to be satisfied. I truly hope that the dealer and Hunter get all of your issues resolved and you can begin to enjoy your boat. Please let us know when things are corrected to your satisfaction and this thread may disappear.
 
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Bernie LaScala

Good News - It floats!!!

We finally placed my 260 in the water late Wednesday afternoon. I sailed with the future inlaws last Thursday. When the boat was heeled over to starboard in a good wind, I was able to remove 3 1/2 gallons of water from the areas under the galley sink, aft bunk, and aft lockers. However, the wind quickly died before I could get the remaining water out of the boat. Sunday and today were rainy with no wind and so my plans to sail on these two days were cancelled. I believe that the water I found was simply residual water from the original launch when a lot of it came in within a short time. I checked the bilge today, and there was about the same small amount remaining as when I left the boat last Thursday. I hope to dry out the bilge and be able to check it thoroughly when I sail next weekend. Unfortunately, there was water about 3/4 " deep on the cabin floor today. The forward end of the plexiglas hatch is allowing the rain to get into the boat. I have covered the hatch with a small silver tarp, but I hate placing such a cheap loooking cover on a new boat that cost what to me was a lot of money. Are other 260 owners having problems with rain coming through the hatch? The only other problem I have for the dealer is the galley sink pump does not seem to be able to hold a prime. He will be taking care of that in the next few days. I was at the dealer last week when the rub rail was replaced. Although I had promised Greg a picture, both I and the dealer forgot to take one. I did see the repair technician use plenty of 5200 and the proper type of screws to install it. Sorry Greg, but it did look a lott better, especially since the heads of the screws were all of the same type. One problem that I have to solve myself(since I supplied the engine) is my 9.9 4-stroke Mercury Bigfoot Sailpower can't get above 2000 rpm. Even at 2000 rpm, it moves the boat quite well but I am afraid that this might be putting a strain on the engine whose wide open throttle design is 4500-5500 rpm. I am trying to find out the pitch of the propeller that came with it (I can't make out the numbers on the prop) to make sure that it is the lowest pitch available (9.5). The outboard dealer also told me that the 25" shaft may be too long for my application causing a backpressure on the thru-prop exhaust. If this is the case, I may have to increase the height of the outboard bracket. Anyone have any other suggestions or experience?
 

Phil Herring

Alien
Mar 25, 1997
4,918
- - Bainbridge Island
Here's what I would do

That's bizarre!! But something here just doesn't add up for me. What caused the reaction? What you wrote on this web site? Did you write directly to Hunter? What did you say? What would Hunter be so concerned about? How would anyone at Hunter even know enough to put all this together?? Were you representing Raytheon in these communications? I think we're missing a few links. Of course, this is all speculation on my part, but it makes no sense to me that anyone (buyer or not) would be bothered so much by anything an owner wrote to go to the trouble of tracking you down and threatening your job. Certainly not based on what you've written on HOW. What makes *much* more sense to me, and probably anyone else who's ever worked around sales and marketing types, is that some Raytheon rep who calls on Hunter became worried about *losing* the Hunter business, which has got to be considerable. I guess I'd like to hear more about the response from Raytheon Marine and where it came from. I dunno. Strange things happen every day, I guess, but this appears to be missing a few puzzle pieces.
 
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Greg Stebbins

Phil, Eric is very right.

One of the things I got from Hunter during my conversations with them is the degree they are tuned in to HOW. Our posts do apparently make it to their bulletin boards and walls to a great degree. I'd don't blame them at all. To have an open portal to their customer’s thinking is an incredible asset. There are people at Hunter whose main job is to monitor this site and other Hunter related web activity. We (HOW folks) are known by name at Hunter. A better question might be, is the HOW information being properly used? As for Lyle (Hunter Marine), I haven’t heard from him again. I can’t guarantee our legal types didn’t make a couple of phone calls anyway. Like I said, aggressive! Greg
 

Phil Herring

Alien
Mar 25, 1997
4,918
- - Bainbridge Island
To Eric, Greg

Yes, I am well aware that they monitor these forums closely and that important information (such as Bernie's 260) is sometimes distributed through the company. And far from hoping this will go away, I believe threads like this are very important both to owners and Hunter. Everybody gains from the exchange of information. And this one has been particularly civil and well-documented, too. I have my own opinions of course, based on my exposure to many folks at Hunter. Especially those in the trenches. They're good people and they care about doing a good job. Admittedly, I give them the benefit of the doubt. I also see a number of situations where just one side of the story is told here in the forums. Often, the dealer and/or factory has a side to tell, too. Those stories are seldom told here, for reasons that are entirely appropriate. This is a forum for information exchange, not grievance arbitration. So I ask you to pardon my occasional frustration when I sense that we're not getting all the relevant facts... as I suspect is the case in this situation with Raytheon. (My hunch, Greeg, is that someone ain't being straight with you.) Far from wanting to shut this down, I'd really like to hear more about it, particularly the elements of the story that would allow it make a bit more sense.
 
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Anon Emous

Known by name?

We are know by name you say? Our posts put on bulletin boards? Uh, you know all those posts that you formerly thought were by Bryan C? Well, they weren't. It was just a pseudonym. Especially the ones about the seacocks.
 
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Jim Larson

3.5 gallons of water? Is it really fixed?

Bernie, Per your comment about ending up with 3.5 gallons of water in the boat when healed, are you sure your leak is fixed? When you had the boat level, shouldn't it have been in the bilge pump area prior to the sail? When our leaky 260 was level, all the water pooled there. Jim
 
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Jim Kolstoe

Greg, I would...

Approach the problem much the same way you have, except I might start on the person to person approach more quickly. As you may have gathered, I am one of that disfavored (except when its your ox that got gored) profession. One of the lessons that I took from my training, and my professional experience since then, is that lawsuits are not necessarily the best answer. You're looking for a solution to a problem. If you can find it by a quick, simple and (gasp) inexpensive means such as person to person contact, you are far better off. My hats' off to you for chosing the better course for your problem. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
 
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Bernie LaScala

Response to Jim Larson

Jim, On the maiden launch, water not only filled the bilge pump area, but flowed over the top of the ballast tank top. The tank has a rounded edge that sticks up and can easily trap water. I believe (and hope) that the 3.5 gallons is just residual water from the first launch. You really can't completely remove the water unless the boat is heeled over and so this next weekend I'm hoping for some decent wind to completely dry out the hull area. The leaking hatch accumulates water only on the cabin and head decks so I know that I am not getting any water in the bilge from the hatch. What has happened with your 260 problem? Bernie
 
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Tom

Hatch leak...

Bernie et al, I think that I may have the same type of hatch leak you mentioned. Any ideas about how to remedy that situation? I was thinking of removing the lexan slider and all the teak and reassembling it making sure that everything is caulked well. Isn't this something that the dealer should be fixing? Wish my dealer was Crazy Dave, wish they were all as professional as him. So, how should we fix this leak? Glad you're floatin.... Tom
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Hatch Leaks on many models.

Bernie: I think if you look back in the archives you will see that many of the Hunters have this problem. It is usually when you wash the boat down or when there is heavy rains. There were several posts where the owners put a rubber stop in the back of the track to prevent water from running forward and then leaking from the tracks. I am now familiar with your model, but that was their fix. I had a cover made for the companion way. This solved most of the problem. When I wash the boat down or leave for the week I just snap on the sunbrella cover and the boat stays clean and dry. It also keeps the wood around the companionway from weathering too. I think that we paid about $90 for the cover including installation. Man-o-man, am I glad you got this fixed. Now we can move on to more productive things like sailing and enjoying life.
 
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Alan

water on top of the ballast tank

In March or April I posted a message here about a '94 H26 that I had just bought. There was a wet spot under the galley sink that collected water each time I rocked the boat which had just been launched but not sailed. The dealer though it had been hidden somewhere and would dry out. I wasn't so sure because it was salty so dyed the ballast tank red and the water under the sink did not turn red, it never smelled fragrant like when I opened the inspection port, and each time I sailed, less and less water collected (at times under the head sink, bilge and a drop under the port sette) until last Sunday when there was none. I had noticed that the water in the inspection port was always higher than the rest of the tank and realized that even a slow leak would have flooded the boat. By the way the compression post area was always dry and all the hoses were tight. So, how is that all relevent here? Well I noticed that there was water on top of the ballast tank through the narrow space between the step and inspection port extention, so water can collect on top of the tank and it's nearly impossible to get it out except by heeling and mopping at the same time!
 
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Michael McClain

100!!!

Congratulations to all! 100 posts. I've read them all and thus felt deserving of this honor. It seems that Bernie's problem is virtually solved, we've all learned a ton, Crazy Dave has reached mythic proportions (no buzzle intended!), and the consensus is that Hunter still makes a damn good boat. Cheers.
 
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