Birth of a new mainsail

Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
BlueJ gets a new carbon main... 225 sqr feet worth. The current sail is still in very good shape/condition but a one-time offer from my sailmaker makes this too good to pass up. Always fun working with a ACTUAL sailmaker, and not an order taker. We talk back and forth on design issues. I get drawings, he gets feedback. Translates to speed. A HUGE shout-out to Martin at Somerset Sails - keeps us on the podium!



All cut and sewn today; final fitting-out underway.



If you work with a REAL sailmaker, give them a shout-out!
 
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Jackdaw

Jackdaw

.
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Davidasailor26 said:
Very cool. Looking forward to seeing videos of it flying.
Click to expand
Thanks! Funny thing.. the crew has always liked that the majority of the old main was much more translucent. Made trimming spinnaker downwind VERY easy. The new sail is mostly solid black, so these days are done.

 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

.
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
OK a discussion point!

I was talking to the sailmaker about the head of the sail. He has been putting more and more single eyes at the top, foregoing the traditional headboard. This seemed crazy to me, as I figured the headboard had three purposes.

1) Wider head means more sail area
2) Better support of the luff
3) Spread the load over more cloth

His point (true!) is the extra area is actually very small, and that the pressed eye is VERY strong. And the layers of laminated cloth under it will more than hold the load.

Thoughts?
 
B

barnstormer

.
Apr 29, 2012
67
Catalina 30 TRBS Lake City Marina
Jackdaw said:
BlueJ gets a new carbon main... 225 sqr feet worth. The current sail is still in very good shape/condition but a one-time offer from my sailmaker makes this too good to pass up. Always fun working with a ACTUAL sailmaker, and not an order taker. We talk back and forth on design issues. I get drawings, he gets feedback. Translates to speed. A HUGE shout-out to Martin at Somerset Sails - keeps us on the podium!



All cut and sewn today; final fitting-out underway.



If you work with a REAL sailmaker, give them a shout-out!
Click to expand
 
B

barnstormer

.
Apr 29, 2012
67
Catalina 30 TRBS Lake City Marina
Martin made my cruz radial sails for my tall rig catalina 30, couldn't beat the price, very happy with the sails!
 
pateco

pateco

.
Aug 12, 2014
2,207
Hunter 31 (1983) Pompano Beach FL
Jealous.
New sails would be great, but still too many other boat projects to finance.
 
Bosman

Bosman

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Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
Personally, if this was my boat, I would go with slightly wider head. I had a talk with my sailmaker a while back as well as reading head-to-head shootout of Maxus 26 with standard and wide heads - the latter had about 0.5kt higher sustained speed (cross cut "charter" mainsail vs radial individual owner version).... The only reason I did not proceed with wide head was lack of time to modify the backstay fitting at the top of the mast and the fact I needed the sail "for yesterday".
 
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Bosman

Bosman

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Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
If "no headboard" solution was so good, we would see a lot of them on modern production boats (fractional rigs). We do not....

Are you able to get the sail file of your new main from the sailmaker? I have ProSail (demo) - it would be interested to see the actual difference in sail area.
 
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Jackdaw

Jackdaw

.
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Bosman said:
If "no headboard" solution was so good, we would see a lot of them on modern production boats (fractional rigs). We do not....

Are you able to get the sail file of your new main from the sailmaker? I have ProSail (demo) - it would be interested to see the actual difference in sail area.
Click to expand
Not as rare as you might think...

Also, remember that boats take a HUGE penalty for sail area above MAX rated/measured area. For most rating systems, there are girth measure points at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 7/8th mainsail luff. The so-called IMS-MAX or PHRF-MAX size. So with a headboard, the extra area would be a sliver triangle with a headboard base of maybe 2-3 inches, going to a point at the 7/8 measure point. I figure its less than a square foot for my sail.

Squareheads are great of course (pogo!) but suffer a huge ratings hit.
 
Bosman

Bosman

.
Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
Jackdaw - if you are going with the typical plastic mastslides
Jackdaw said:
Not as rare as you might think...
Click to expand
I do not disagree nor agree, but this is because I mainly look at the cruisers and somewhat less into pure racers. The ones I have seen or look at online or in magazines seem to have (in majority) rather large heads.

I do get the measurements of the main, even the ProSail used by your sailmaker does require MGU, MGM and MGL dimensions to build a sail model (also head and the foot of course). I am not that familiar with the PHRF measurements, but that is simply because I do not race competitively.
Attached photo shows nicely the difference between traditional main and one with really square head, to those that are not very familiar with the topic.
Overall, the new mainsail which is the topic of this discussion is looking very well. Will it have difference draft build in, compared to your previous main?
 

Attachments

Jackdaw

Jackdaw

.
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Bosman said:
Jackdaw - if you are going with the typical plastic mastslides

I do not disagree nor agree, but this is because I mainly look at the cruisers and somewhat less into pure racers. The ones I have seen or look at online or in magazines seem to have (in majority) rather large heads.

I do get the measurements of the main, even the ProSail used by your sailmaker does require MGU, MGM and MGL dimensions to build a sail model (also head and the foot of course). I am not that familiar with the PHRF measurements, but that is simply because I do not race competitively.
Attached photo shows nicely the difference between traditional main and one with really square head, to those that are not very familiar with the topic.
Overall, the new mainsail which is the topic of this discussion is looking very well. Will it have difference draft build in, compared to your previous main?
Click to expand
No we have a Tide Marine track system.

The new sail is the exact same measurements as the old, and looks a lot like the top one in your picture, which looks PHRF-MAX. And it will have the standard 4 inch headboard. If the sail would have been built with just an eye, I would have lost a sliver of sail area, a line that split the headboard to the top telltail.

PS I think the lower sail just has a eye! Makes sense, no need at all for a board.
 
Davidasailor26

Davidasailor26

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May 17, 2004
5,069
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Jackdaw said:
OK a discussion point!

I was talking to the sailmaker about the head of the sail. He has been putting more and more single eyes at the top, foregoing the traditional headboard. This seemed crazy to me, as I figured the headboard had three purposes.

1) Wider head means more sail area
2) Better support of the luff
3) Spread the load over more cloth
Click to expand
So even if the benefits are negligible, is there any downside of having the traditional headboard? Off the top of my head (pun not intended) I'm guessing weight aloft may be one. Or is it extra labor?
 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

.
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Davidasailor26 said:
So even if the benefits are negligible, is there any downside of having the traditional headboard? Off the top of my head (pun not intended) I'm guessing weight aloft may be one. Or is it extra labor?
Click to expand
No downside AFAICT. All of my sailmakers comments seems to revolve around it being extra work for them (=cost for me) with limited benefit. But I like them. And I'm writing the check. So head board it is.

Plus, in my mind I LOVE the idea of getting totally max area out of my sailplan. Our races are often determined by just a few seconds. I want all the help I can get from my sails!

If I ever LOST a race by a second (closest margin has been 4) with a headboard-less mainsail, I KNOW what I would blame! ;^)
 
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Brian S

Brian S

.
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Hey, Jackdaw, you shoulda asked me to make your sail! I can make 'em good and cheap for you - trash bags don't cost much! :D:D:D
 
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Jackdaw

Jackdaw

.
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Brian S said:
Hey, Jackdaw, you shoulda asked me to make your sail! I can make 'em good and cheap for you - trash bags don't cost much! :D:D:D
Click to expand
I'll call you. next time. ;^)
 
Davidasailor26

Davidasailor26

.
May 17, 2004
5,069
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Brian S said:
Hey, Jackdaw, you shoulda asked me to make your sail! I can make 'em good and cheap for you - trash bags don't cost much! :D:D:D
Click to expand
Hmmm , I'm not a structural engineer, but Wikipedia puts the tensile strength of polyethylene at 37 MPa, and carbon fiber laminate at 1600 MPa. I look forward to your garbage bag air foil with the strength of Jackdaw's sail but 43 times the thickness. ;-) Seeing that design sounds almost worth the cost of admission.
 
Jackdaw

Jackdaw

.
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Put the sails up to let it air out, un-crease the folds and let the glue set in. Fits very well. Will go for a test sail perhaps this afternoon! Beyond the function, I have to say that the black looks very cool.






 
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