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Bilge hose outlet

Discussion in 'Ask A Hunter Owner' started by Lance Dias, Dec 2, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Lance Dias

    Lance Dias

    Joined Dec 15, 2008
    12 posts, 0 likes
    - -
    AU Sydney
    I bought my Hunter 356 new in 2003. Only recently did I figured out where the water in the bilge was coming from each time I went sailing. When healing, the bilge hose outlet at the side of the hull is under water & hence the leak - see picture
    This is obviously an oversight by Hunter & would appreciate advice on how others have addressed the problem.
     

    Attached Files:



  2. FastOlson

    FastOlson

    Joined Apr 8, 2010
    930 posts, 81 likes
    Ericson Yachts Olson 34
    US Portland OR
    Absent some major plumbing changes, how about just putting a new (proper) hose with no cuff and leading the loop as far upward as you can. It's been 14 years and those inexpensive old hoses are 'bout due for replacement anyway.
    The surveyors that I know frown severely on those old glued-on cuffs.

    Part two of the answer: if your boat has a cheapie Rule centrifugal pump, escort it to a dumpster without even a proper funeral.
    Replace it with a Jabsco 3-chamber pump, and the built-in check valves will not allow it to back flow even if water tries to come back toward the bilge.

    Here is a link (picked a vendor at random from the 'net).
    http://www.iboats.com/Pump-Jabsco/dm/view_id.935473?mkwid=s9ZdIwbeY&crid=41829038899&mp_kw=&mp_mt=&pdv=c&cm_mmc=Google_Main-_-Mall+New+Shopping:Google-_-All+Products:Mall+New+Shopping:Google-_-PLAs&gclid=CjwKCAiA3o7RBRBfEiwAZMtSCdf_D4QaM6CqqLdvwpj5z929ASMFmDxYHRx_1YeqPQIU5xqTCg1kDhoCXlgQAvD_BwE

    Our boat came with two of this model, both with float switches. Sometimes excessive redundancy is a Real Good Thing.
     


    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
    Lance Dias likes this.
  3. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    2,319 posts, 180 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westport, MA
    You should have a higher loop in that hose.
     


  4. ggrizzard

    ggrizzard

    Joined May 27, 2004
    960 posts, 65 likes
    Hunter 30_74-83
    US Ponce Inlet FL
    Not sure, but the thru hole fitting itself seems to be a "Home Depot" Ell.
     


    Parsons likes this.
  5. Lance Dias

    Lance Dias

    Joined Dec 15, 2008
    12 posts, 0 likes
    - -
    AU Sydney
    Hi Guys, many thanks for the advice. Particularly all the tips from Fast Olson.
     


  6. Hunter Ad Bot

    Hunter Ad Bot

    Joined Oct 27, 2016
    0 posts, 10 likes
    US Seattle
    Hunter props, shafts, struts, and cutless bearings

    [​IMG]

    See the product
     


  7. Lance Dias

    Lance Dias

    Joined Dec 15, 2008
    12 posts, 0 likes
    - -
    AU Sydney
    Interestingly, none of the owners of the many Hunter 356 yachts (or other Hunters) seem to have the same water ingress issue I have? Hunter seem to have recognized the issue of back flow water into the bilge when fitting the shower sump outlet with a stop cock. However, obviously the plumbing of the bilge pump outlet was/is an issue. I would be interested to hear feedback from other H356 owners?
     


  8. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    2,623 posts, 673 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    In the unlikely event that your bilge pump started pumping during the bad side heel, you can face a significant back flow due to a siphon, when the pump shuts off [ high point loop or not].

    The potential siphon would stop when the discharge point was returned to above water level.

    A quick, but not fool proof, suggestion is to install a mechanically loaded [spring inside]...

    Check Valve or reverse flow preventer in the pump discharge line

    During a quick web search this is the concept using a hose barbed ends for a in line check valve.
    https://www.industrialspec.com/shop/check-valves/plastic-check-valves/spring-loaded.html

    Why did I say "not fool proof"? Even check valves require maintenance.;)
    Jim...
     


  9. Lance Dias

    Lance Dias

    Joined Dec 15, 2008
    12 posts, 0 likes
    - -
    AU Sydney
    Thanks Jim, Although some people think its not a good idea to install a check valve, I have decided to install a new longer hose with a high loop going up near the deck. This is a difficult job as I encountered a wire tie (see picture) behind the internal cabin lining. I will then consider installing a check valve near the outlet. Later on, I think I will also install a bilge alarm.
     

    Attached Files:



  10. Sefuller

    Sefuller

    Joined May 6, 2010
    306 posts, 36 likes
    Oday 34
    US Milwaukee
    @FastOlson I admit I've always sort of taken our electric bilge pump for granted, although I did replace it on principal a few years ago. I replaced a Rule 2000 which may have been original to our 1983 boat with a new Rule 2000. I'm curious what your basis is for the criticism of the Rule pumps? Our seem to have served well, I have used them countless times to pump out the entire bilge when cleaning. The Rule is rated at 2000 gph vs <180 gph for the Jabsco. That seems like a lot to give up - even with two Jabscos our capacity would be well below the Rule even if the Rule doesn't perform up to the rated capacity. What am I missing?
     


  11. FastOlson

    FastOlson

    Joined Apr 8, 2010
    930 posts, 81 likes
    Ericson Yachts Olson 34
    US Portland OR
    There was a time when a) I believed the Rule pump advertising information, and b) before I read a PS test of real world water movement thru one to a nominal rise ("head") and they measured the thru put.
    I believe that Maine Sail has written about this as well.
    I nowadays believe that the Jabsco pump is a real world achievement, and the centrifugal pumps (of which Rule is only one brand) are not able to provide the advertised flow in a typical boat.
    OTOH, I would never question the Potential Capability of a centrifugal pump under the right circumstances. If the "head" is not too high, the hose is smooth-bore, and there are no major course changes in the routing, they can certainly move about half of that published figure.

    An aside (or kind of a case in point), last spring I was 'first on scene' to save a 37 footer sailboat at our moorage. It had about a foot of freeboard left and the cockpit was back-filling thru the drains at a that point. water was working its way around the companionway doors. Our YC has a large (3" line) pump powered by a Honda engine. Lucky for everyone involved it started up and with some priming difficulties, I got the intake strum box down inside a flooded lazaretto and it removed enough water to reverse the down-flooding. What with some quick phone calls, we soon had a local (BoatUS) rep there with his pickup truck full of pumps (!) and he finished the dewatering.
    So a centrifugal pump, under the right circumstances is the best way.
    Thing is.... there are almost no boats with an optimized pump discharge system.
    Over the last several years I have replaced the hose runs for both of our boat's electric pumps and also the pump-and-hose setup for the cockpit manual pump.
    The 1988 hoses were ribbed - a bad thing - and on the verge of pin holing.
    So, at least in theory, you are not at all wrong, and a "2000" model is better than that smaller ones. If we were to add another "bigger disaster" pump, I might well be one rated for 3500 rpm, and then if we could get 2000 out of it we'd be happy.
    Yet another aside: remember that all these dewatering devices are really just there to give you an extra ten minutes to find and stop/slow the leak. Doing the math for a (an example) 1.5 inch hole, approx 2 feet under the water, will raise your eyebrows; it did mine!

    About a decade ago we were touring a SantaCruz 52, totally set up for small crew offshore sailing (wonderful boat, but at $750K, way out of our league.) and noticed a slot in the aft cabin sole for a handle for an Edson big pump. The salesman told us that owners referred to that gallon-a-stroke pump as their OMG Pump! :)

    So, no, you're not missing anything. It's just that sometimes advertising will overstate the, ah, benefit of a product....... like those spam pharmacy ads that sometimes sneak into your mailbox!!
    :)
     


  12. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    2,623 posts, 673 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    Actually Rule Pump data is correct. Please don't clobber me for saying this.:pray:

    In a PM to MaineSail I told him that I would try to post a "made easy" offset for "real world" boat use compensations. I did the research, found a web link to easily calculate the friction loses and elevation/height differences to compensate any Pump curve data.

    After doing several real world test cases, Friction loss was insignificant, leaving only elevation differences as meaningful, from a Pump, fittings, and piping standpoint.

    But...

    MaineSail noted that more important was the actual Voltage DC, at the pump, when any pump is running.
    Undersized wiring and low battery voltage had much more impact than Friction losses.

    ______
    BTW all pump curves are done with 70°F fresh water, at the pump discharge, and standard voltages.
    Any variations are the responsibility off the installer and his pump selection.;)

    Jim...

    PS: Fresh versus Sea water, specific gravity is more significant than friction too.:)
     


  13. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    2,623 posts, 673 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    I did look back at the Rule Pump discussion links and how to understand what a pump curve info does.

    http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/dual-bilge-pumps.175414/
    for the Rule Pump discussion with @Maine Sail et al.

    And...
    One example of my real world calculations to properly install any Safety Bilge pump.

    https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/length-of-bildge-pump-run.178115/

    I did my boat's OEM bilge pump and found it would pump out 1 of my 1/2" thru hull lines, if a line broke. Therefore gives me time to plug and stop. My Bilge runs from my Engine start battery, which is most likely to have topped off battery voltages.;)

    Jim...
     


  14. FastOlson

    FastOlson

    Joined Apr 8, 2010
    930 posts, 81 likes
    Ericson Yachts Olson 34
    US Portland OR
    Thanks Jim.
    Good links that I had not bothered to look for.
     


  15. Lance Dias

    Lance Dias

    Joined Dec 15, 2008
    12 posts, 0 likes
    - -
    AU Sydney
    Well guys, After fitting a new hose with a larger loop tucked up under the deck, I am still getting back flow water into the bilge after strong wind sailing.
    Next move is to fit a check valve on the down side of the loop near the outlet.
     


  16. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    2,623 posts, 673 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    1) Did you change the hose style [smooth vs ribbed] and diameter?
    2) How much "higher" loop did you add?

    Why do I ask these question?
    Mainly to ≈ calculate how much water is in a full hose.

    If you get more water back, than a full hose volume, then you definitely need a check valve.;)

    A "spring loaded" check valve must be carefully designed, harder to get, and does the best job.
    A "by gravity" check valve must be installed nearly vertically to allow the "ball or flapper" to seat and stop the back flow.

    All this has assumed the bilge water is from the bilge discharge to overboard.;)
    Jim...
     


  17. Lance Dias

    Lance Dias

    Joined Dec 15, 2008
    12 posts, 0 likes
    - -
    AU Sydney
    Hi Jim, Yes, I installed new 1" ribbed with a smooth inside hose. I added aprox 1 foot additional height to the loop so the loop now goes from the outlet to the gunnel before going back down to the bilge. I was thinking if the hose loop was moved away from the hull towards the cabin, I would have a more vertical loop when the boat is healing over.
    The bilge water is coming firm the bilge pump outlet as I previously tested it by plugging the outlet when sailing & no water was in the bilge.
     


  18. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    2,623 posts, 673 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    This Jabsco valve shows a possible "off vertical" bilge pump check valve for a 1" hose.
    It is not spring loaded, but has a angled flapper.
    http://www.jabscoshop.com/marine/pu...ories/29295-1000-in-line-non-return-valve.htm

    Remember to test your bilge for operation before leaving your boat if you install a check valve.
    I do.
    At end of a sailing day, my engine has made Hot Water. I put a few drops of bilge cleaner in a gallon of hot water, pour into my bilge, to confirm my bilge pump is working.;)
    Also a double hose clamp is recommended for ribbed hose.
    Jim...

    PS: 10' of 1" hose can contain about 3 pints of water.
     


  19. Dalliance

    Dalliance

    Joined Oct 6, 2007
    599 posts, 58 likes
    Hunter 1982 H30 Cherubini
    US Chicago (Burnham)
    The issue here is that your bilge pump outlet is frequently below the waterline when you sail, so it must be too low on the hull, too near the beam, or both. There should never be water coming in through that outlet. A higher anti-siphon loop, smooth hose, better pump, check valves all may be reasonable suggestions, but I think that relocating the outlet is the only solution that will address the root of the problem. The outlet should be as close to the toe rail as possible and far enough forward or aft of the beam so it's not submerged when you heel.
     


    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  20. Lance Dias

    Lance Dias

    Joined Dec 15, 2008
    12 posts, 0 likes
    - -
    AU Sydney
    Although check valves on bilge pumps are not recommended by the "experts" and the pump maker Rule, I note with interest that Rule's latest suite of bilge pumps now come with check valves installed in them. Has anything changed?
     


  21. JamesG161

    JamesG161

    Joined Feb 14, 2014
    2,623 posts, 673 likes
    Hunter 430
    US Waveland, MS
    Never depend on a check valve for safety reasons.
    The reason is "lack of maintenance".

    In your case, you are trying to stop a "inconvenient" back flow.

    Here is your judgment factors.
    1) Does a leaking check valve cause your bilge pump to continuously cycle when at Berth?
    2) Can a check valve fail SHUT, thus prevent normal pump operation?
    3) Do you want to verify good operations?
    4) Do you want to remove, clean and service it?

    The Jabsco diaphragm bilge pump MUST have working check valves to operate.

    I would install one like in my post #17 and test it each time I left the boat at berth.

    One gallon of water with food coloring in it, can be observed pumping over board and the bilge pump show to NOT be cycling. I use Blue bilge cleaner in my water test.

    BTW test it before leaving on a Sail.;)

    I have no check valve and do this test too.
    Jim...