Best ways to split a fleet

[Davidasailor26]

Our club's non-spin fleet has grown a little and starts are getting a bit crowded. We're considering splitting the fleet, maybe into Non-spin C and D or into PHRF and cruising classes. One suggestion is to split the fleet at 5000 lbs displacement. Off-hand this makes some sense to me. It would put about equal numbers of boats on each side and generally put the more maneuverable little boats (that tend to excel in our low wind area) in a different start than the big barges, so to speak. Are there pitfalls that I'm overlooking?

Other options we're considering are just cutting it at the average PHRF or letting skippers choose. In a survey of members the majority says to cut at average PHRF. The only problem with that is there will be a few boats seemingly misplaced (long but heavy boats would need to compete with the performance hulls, for example). If we let everyone choose we'll probably end up with one fleet starving out eventually. Suggestions welcome.

Disclaimer - I have a dog in the fight. I'd be one of the long heavy cruisers hurting against higher performance hulls when it's blowing 4 kts.

 

[Kermit]

Here’s an option y’all might consider for splitting the fleet.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Here’s an option y’all might consider for splitting the fleet.

Haha. The starts aren't quite that sporty yet, but we'd like to space it out before it feels that way.

 

[Jackdaw]

If you do this I would go average PHRF all the way.

Every other option seems arbitrary, or would allow gaming. At the end of the day, PHRF racing is never going to be totally 'fair', in the sense that for every boat that 'likes' the day's conditions, there has to be one that does not. Don't try and bake that out, you'll create more problems (mostly managment) than you solve. You REALLY do not want to be seen as partial, you want everything at arms-length.

 

[mcrow33]

I'm not sure how hardcore your racers are? At my club, we have what we call fast sails. Because it's informal, we don't have a committee boat. We have a start window of 5 minutes, so start time is 10:30, and you can start anytime between 10:30 and 10:35. Every boat keeps their own time. You start your time when you cross the start line, if you don't start in the 5 minute window, the clock starts at 10:35. All boats are adjusted by PHRF, but with this format, it welcomes all club members whether you are a hardcore racer or sail a bathtub, like I do. The courses are long, short course is 5.9nm and the long course is 9.1nm. The marks are islands and the course used on based on wind speed and not direction. So sometimes the first leg is downwind.

 

[shemandr]

We tried to designate boats according to their "Sportiness" for exactly the same reason. You can have sport boats which rate the same as a longer tub. So we had rating designations such as "C" which meant it is a cruising boat and should be racing other cruising boats in a similar PHRF band. I believe it was a complete flop. We don't do that anymore. We just divide the fleet on straight PHRF basis. But Jackdaw is right. We have a Tartan 33 giving time to a group of Alerions and the complaints have been numerous. So they dinged the Alerions and they formed their own class .... It goes on and on.

 

[jeepbluetj]

So if the non-spin fleet has gotten too big, isn't the obvious solution a truckload of spinnakers?

 

[Davidasailor26]

If you do this I would go average PHRF all the way.

Every other option seems arbitrary, or would allow gaming. At the end of the day, PHRF racing is never going to be totally 'fair', in the sense that for every boat that 'likes' the day's conditions, there has to be one that does not. Don't try and bake that out, you'll create more problems (mostly managment) than you solve. You REALLY do not want to be seen as partial, you want everything at arms-length.

Thanks for the input. I'm sure you're right that in the long run that's probably the best way to avoid trouble and keep everyone satisfied.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I believe it was a complete flop. We don't do that anymore

That's what I'm afraid of. PHRF certainly provides a more quantitative split so at least it's more defensible when someone complains.

 

[Davidasailor26]

So if the non-spin fleet has gotten too big, isn't the obvious solution a truckload of spinnakers?

Oh, we've talked about that. The dwindling spin fleet would be delighted. Unfortunately many of the non spin skippers have no interest. Most of the others don't like that our longest possible leg is 1 mile, and their crew doesn't want to spend the whole time repacking a chute. Part of the reason the Non-spin fleet has grown is that it's absorbed a couple of former spin boats.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I'm not sure how hardcore your racers are? At my club, we have what we call fast sails. Because it's informal, we don't have a committee boat. We have a start window of 5 minutes, so start time is 10:30, and you can start anytime between 10:30 and 10:35. Every boat keeps their own time. You start your time when you cross the start line, if you don't start in the 5 minute window, the clock starts at 10:35. All boats are adjusted by PHRF, but with this format, it welcomes all club members whether you are a hardcore racer or sail a bathtub, like I do. The courses are long, short course is 5.9nm and the long course is 9.1nm. The marks are islands and the course used on based on wind speed and not direction. So sometimes the first leg is downwind.

We're more formal than that, but not super hardcore. Attitudes range widely from moderately competitive to extremely casual. It's not ideal when the extremely casual ones accidently end up at the start line just before the gun, with the competitive ones trying to push them up.

 

[Ben4195]

About 15-ish years ago our local sailing association had a Wednesday Night JAM group that numbered probably close to 30 boats, easily over 20. Currently we have about 9. Back then the JAM boats were separated into two fleets, one being the "Gold" fleet, the other the "Silver" fleet, or something like that. The Gold fleet was supposedly the more experiences racers, the more serious racers, what have you. the Silver fleet was for the Noobs, and the non-serious racers. When a Silver boat got a first place finish for the 9 race series, that boat automatically graduated to the Gold fleet for the next series. There are three series each year, spring, summer, fall. I don't know how well that worked our really, as I wasn't involved in the admin of the races, and I never had the privileged of graduating to Gold.

 

[Jackdaw]

If its any consolation, you're not the first fleet trying to find their way through this.

While splitting or banding often seems like the answer, it often leads to Balkanization and smaller fleets were a 3rd place 'podium finish' might be one place from DFL, and the groups want more and more customization to favor their type of sailing.

For most mixed fleets, I like this type of split first, as long as there is at least 3-4 boats in each fleet. Don't split unless there is at least 3-4 boats.

Sport Boat (SA/D over a certain value)
SPIN competitive spin boat
NON-SPIN competitive non-spin boats
Cruiser class casual non-spin (pursuit start?)

Then banding. I would be careful on how big the fleet must be before you create bands. I suggest at least 16 boats, which creates 8 in a fleet if everyone shows. Much better competition, and then a podium finish means something.

 

[Jackdaw]

About 15-ish years ago our local sailing association had a Wednesday Night JAM group that numbered probably close to 30 boats, easily over 20. Currently we have about 9. Back then the JAM boats were separated into two fleets, one being the "Gold" fleet, the other the "Silver" fleet, or something like that. The Gold fleet was supposedly the more experiences racers, the more serious racers, what have you. the Silver fleet was for the Noobs, and the non-serious racers. When a Silver boat got a first place finish for the 9 race series, that boat automatically graduated to the Gold fleet for the next series. There are three series each year, spring, summer, fall. I don't know how well that worked our really, as I wasn't involved in the admin of the races, and I never had the privileged of graduating to Gold.

The promotion/relegation concept is clever and can work. The downside is that it presupposes that boats actually WANT to move up; often boats and crews like the more casual scene and don't want to be bumped up to the crazy class. Same it true on the other side.. While a boat might have struggled its first year or two after moving up (that happens at WYC every time, a boat moving from PHRF 2 to PHRF 1 finishes last most every race that first season) they might LIKE the battle and work to get better, and the notion of going back down would be disheartening.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Lots of things to consider. In the spring series we had 16 Non-spin boats total, with about 12 out for any given week. As long as we split it close to half we will have decent numbers per class, but if we leave it at skippers discretion probably not.

 

[FDL S2]

I don't race in our clubs weekly series-work commitments would force me to miss at least a third of the races-but having too many boats show up on race night is a good problem to have for a sailing club.