Battery Acid Containment Question

Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,649
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
On my 93 C30, the battery compartment is under the starboard settee. It appears to have been built with a divider of some sort and to hold two Grp 27 batteries.
A PO cut out the divider, leaving a hole in the bottom of the compartment, to fit in two Grp 31 batteries.
If I was to repair/seal the hole in the bottom of the compartment and provide proper tie downs, will the compartment be considered as acid containment so battery trays/boxes will not be required?
If yes, then I can stay with Grp 31s. If no, there isn't enough room for Grp 31 trays or boxes so I will have to go down a size to Grp 27s.
The first pic shows the compartment and the hole in the bottom to the left of the installed battery. The second pic shows the tight fit of both batteries.
Bat Comp 1.jpg Bat Comp 2.jpg

Thanks
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,410
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Why not? Just fix the hole with epoxy and glass (clean, grind, laminate). If you can't get under it to install a backing to hold the wet glass, pre-laminate the bit for over the gap.
 
May 24, 2004
7,131
CC 30 South Florida
Do you have a problem with battery acid spillage? If not just cover the slot put down a liner and keep the 2 group 31s. I don't see any damage from the install the PO had. Bad batteries can swell up and casings can crack but if you give them proper maintenance and inspect them frequently you should be OK as that compartment seems like it can hold a spill. If your sailing needs do not require the added battery capacity then go back to Gr 27s and install boxes.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,401
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
:yikes::yikes: Project Creep Alert!!!! :yikes::yikes:

As Thinwater said, clean the bottom and then lay up some fiberglass to seal the hole. A simple lid could be made by installing 2 wooden cleats above the batteries and then covering with plywood or fiberglass board from a big box store. The purpose of the lid would to be to cover the battery terminals to protect them from some one tossing something in the locker without looking first.

While you're messing around in the battery compartment, might a good time to add battery terminal fuses, secure the battery cables properly, and put some chafe protection around the hole with the cables enter. Those lugs on the battery cable also look a little suspect. Can't really tell from the photos. The cable also look a little on the small side, but can't really tell. Oh heck, just rewire the whole boat. ;)
 

Ward H

.
Nov 7, 2011
3,649
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
I just bought the boat and the survey noted the hole in the compartment and said the batteries need to be in boxes or trays to contain any spilled acid. Boxes for Grp 31s won't fit so I was wondering if I sealed the hole would that solve the acid containment problem.
My other options are to go to one Grp 31 with a box or downsize to two Grp 27s with boxes. (1 of the 31s was new in 2017, one is dead)
I also have a Grp 27 as an auxiliary battery so going with the one 31 in a box will probably get me started.
I mostly day sail but hope to spend some time out on the hook with this boat so I don't currently have a good idea on my power requirements. I did start a spreadsheet to figure my theoretical power requirements.

One of my many projects is to diagram my battery/charging /engine circuits and plan an upgrade with correct size wiring, new smart charger, ACR, MRBF fuses at battery banks, Alt charging to house bank, etc.

So, sealing the compartment floor is an option.

Thanks
 

SG

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
The cockpit locker does occasionally get some water in it. I think a standard manufactured, plastic battery boxes is good idea.
Where does the hole current drain down to?

I'd suggest you consider gel cells vs. normal lead acid. Although they are are more expensive, but I think are really a pretty good idea. You could essentially just secure and protect them in that compartment (protect the terminals). I don't know what type of shore power charger you have or voltage regulator on the engine charging system? Assuming that you have a modestly sophisticated set of charging control devices, the gel cels are pretty bullet proof. They don't spill, you don't have to check the fluids all the time, etc., etc.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
On my 93 C30, the battery compartment is under the starboard settee. It appears to have been built with a divider of some sort and to hold two Grp 27 batteries.
A PO cut out the divider, leaving a hole in the bottom of the compartment, to fit in two Grp 31 batteries.
If I was to repair/seal the hole in the bottom of the compartment and provide proper tie downs, will the compartment be considered as acid containment so battery trays/boxes will not be required?
If yes, then I can stay with Grp 31s. If no, there isn't enough room for Grp 31 trays or boxes so I will have to go down a size to Grp 27s.
The first pic shows the compartment and the hole in the bottom to the left of the installed battery. The second pic shows the tight fit of both batteries.
View attachment 144895 View attachment 144896

Thanks
Yes fix the hole then your fiberglass box would count as acid containment if it also has a lid and vent.. Keep in mind that anything that is acid edible, screws etc., will make the compartment not acid containment compliant because the acid would eat the hold down screw then the acid would drain down and munch your keel bolts etc...
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
If you are using flooded batteries, you should have an acid containment system, a battery box, or the existing tray that you have, properly sealed. You should also have good hold-downs, and I have found the nylon strap type, that you appear to have had, to be wanting.

You also should have air space between the batteries, for proper cooling.

There isn't really a big difference in capacity going between Grp 27 and 31. The 31's are longer, 13" v. 12 1/16 for the 27's.

I would seal up the hole and go with Grp 27 size deep discharge batteries.
 

JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,046
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
I'd patch and go back to group 27 with new battery boxes with the built in battery meters.
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Two Gp 31 batteries would be a nice bank for the house. Glass the box bottom to contain liquid acid but understand that flooded acid batteries produce acid vapor during recharges that can migrate and corrode elsewhere. Not sure what is nearby but keep that in mind.
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
acid batteries produce acid vapor during recharges
That's interesting. I thought that lead-sulfuric acid batteries produced hydrogen gas when recharged. I thought the acid that escaped was due to the acid "sputtering" when gas bubbles surface. I didn't think the acid "fumes" were a gas, but an aerosol of sulfuric acid. I'm sure it's more complex than that, but that's what I've always assumed this was the case.

There's a product from ThermOil, "Battery De-Mister," that is an oil that sits on top of the electrolyte, that supposed stops this. I am going to use it in the spring when I put new flooded batteries in my boat.

https://www.thermoil.com/
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
There's a product from ThermOil, "Battery De-Mister," that is an oil that sits on top of the electrolyte, that supposed stops this.
Should be called Therm Snake-Oil. I don't know a single battery manufacturer that recommends its use...
 

SG

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
I thought that lead-sulfuric acid batteries produced hydrogen gas when recharged. I thought the acid that escaped was due to the acid "sputtering" when gas bubbles surface. I didn't think the acid "fumes" were a gas, but an aerosol of sulfuric acid. I'm sure it's more complex than that, but that's what I've always assumed this was the case.

Normal recharging out-gasses a bit of hydrogen and oxygen. Boiling-over batteries can cause some sulfuric acid in either gas or liquid form to be discharged (that's not good).

Obviously water vapor too in normal charging/over charging/boiling situations. In those cases the "acid" stays where it's supposed to (for the most part).

Gel cells and "sealed" automotive type batteries can vent hydrogen too -- that's why you should make sure that you have a way for the hydrogen to not build-up. Years ago, I was told by the Hinckley yard in Southwest Harbor, ME that one of their boats was supposedly burned to the waterline because of gel cells that were really "sealed" in a locker by after market installation (presumably executed by others ;^))) ). Hydrogen (as the Hindenburg proved) can cause a bunch of trouble if concentrated and sparked.

There used to be some products (or baking soda, as I recall) that people would use on old battery tops that had a little of acid on them. I never used them -- I'd just use a rag, paper towel, and some rubber gloves to clean-off the tops of the battery if it look a bit gross from over filling. (The things we used to do to old cars!!! :^))) ).

Intresting article on hydrogen control and calculations: (In an interior Uninterruptible Power Suppy situation) http://www.cdtechno.com/pdf/ref/41_6739_0112.pdf
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,401
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
There is nothing too magical about basic Lead-Acid battery chemistry. If you passed HS chemistry in the not too distant past it should be pretty easy to understand. Here's a decent description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery

During charging, a DC current is passed through battery, this causes the bond between the H and O to break yielding Hydrogen gas and Oxygen. If they are recombined, then electricity and water is produced in a fuel cell. This is what powered a lot of early space exploration including the one that failed on Apollo 13. By the way, this is the only electrolysis that occurs on a boat.

When batteries "boil" it is not the same as when water on the stove boils. When water reaches 100* C it vaporizes and bubbles of vapor form at the bottom of the pot and rise to the surface. When batteries boil during a charge cycle, the bubbles are hydrogen and oxygen. The rate of bubbling is a function of the current passing through the water, not the temperature.

Awhile back there was a thread on which, Thinwater calculated the amount of hydrogen that is available in a battery and how much of an explosion hazard it was. I don't recall the exact answer, however, the risk is relatively small so long as the battery compartment is vented. Hydrogen dissipates pretty quickly and rises so it does not build up in the boat like propane or other heavier than air gases. Bets are off if the battery box is sealed tight and the hydrogen can't find a way out.

Sulfuric acid does escape and wants to combine quickly with water. It will condense on metals and absorb moisture from the atmosphere and then corrode the metal. This is why sensitive electronics should not be placed near the battery. Escaping acid will end up on the metal connectors and pieces causing them to fail. Baking soda is a base or alkaline and will neutralize any acid, including sulfuric acid and vinegar. When I was a kid we had little model rockets that flew using vinegar and baking soda. Throw some in a glass of vinegar sometime.

Finally, Merry Christmas may you have a relaxing and restorative holiday season. Remember, spring is less than 3 months away!
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Should be called Therm Snake-Oil. I don't know a single battery manufacturer that recommends its use...
Well, I'm going to give it a try. Just because no battery manufacturers recommend it, doesn't mean it doesn't work. One might cynically assert that they have an interest in people not using it, as it purports to extend battery life. And if it prevents low water situations, it certainly would.

I'd be more interested in battery operators recommending it, or dissatisfied customers recommending against it.

It's my understanding that people used mineral oil for this purpose before this battery-specific product was developed.

One forum member uses it, and recommends it:

Battery Watering Systems
 
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Likes: justsomeguy
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Well, I'm going to give it a try. Just because no battery manufacturers recommend it, doesn't mean it doesn't work. One might cynically assert that they have an interest in people not using it, as it purports to extend battery life. And if it prevents low water situations, it certainly would.

I'd be more interested in battery operators recommending it, or dissatisfied customers recommending against it.

It's my understanding that people used mineral oil for this purpose before this battery-specific product was developed.

One forum member uses it, and recommends it:

Battery Watering Systems
You can do as you wish.... I should have been more clear however in that some, like Trojan, actually have some pretty strong language about additives and other snake-oil like products...


Trojan Battery:
"1. Can I use battery additives?

Trojan Battery, along with other battery manufacturers, do not recommend that you add anything to your batteries other than distilled water. Extensive testing has shown that most of these additives do not work as advertised; in fact, some may do more harm than good. Be aware that adding anything other than water to your batteries will void the warranty.

2. Do you recommend the use of desulfators?
We don’t recommend the use of desulfators or any other external device, as they tend to do more harm than good. No external device or chemicals need to be added to our products – only distilled water."

US Battery Warranty:
"THE PROVISIONS OF THIS LIMITED LIABILITY WARRANTY SHALL NOT APPLY TO FAILURE DUE TO:
• Neglect, breakage, freezing, fire, explosion, wreckage, or the addition of any chemical;"

East Penn Warranty:
"WHAT IS NOT COVERED BY THIS LIMITED WARRANTY
batteries with electrolyte other than as recommended by factory or with a “dope” or additive;"
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I am not surprised at all that manufacturers state that additives void warranties; i would do the same. You can't support a product that has been modified in any way. That still doesn't mean that some additives don't work as advertised.

Extensive testing has shown that most of these additives do not work as advertised; in fact, some may do more harm than good.
Have they published the results of these tests? I'd like to see them. Note that it's not a specific statement regarding what kind, or exactly what additives "do not work as advertised." There are additives to help with sulfated batteries, and there are oils to reduce sputtering and loss of water. What additives are they referring to?
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,401
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Being the curious type, I took a look at the Thermoil website. Here is the explanation they give about why it works.

During charging, the chemical process taking place breaks down water into hydrogen, an explosive gas, and oxygen, which corrodes battery posts, cable ends, and any surrounding metallic parts. Continual overcharging increases the internal temperature of the battery, accelerating the destruction of the battery plates and leading to premature failure. The balanced Battery De-Mister® mixture in the battery increases the re-combination of the hydrogen and oxygen gases over a conventional battery and greatly extends the intervals between water additions. When an oil battery is overcharged, the hydrogen and oxygen gases migrating to the electrolyte surface are slowed by the oil, greatly reducing the acid mist and fumes generated in the charging process.

The oil condenses the hydrogen and oxygen gases, returns the water molecules back into the cell and virtually eliminates the sulfuric acid mist forced out the vent during the charging process.

With virtually no mist and much less gassing, the battery top remains free of acid deposits, thus the chemistry of the electrolyte remains the same while greatly reducing water consumption, toxic fumes, explosion and thus eliminating post and cable corrosion while reducing current leakage across the battery cover. Frequent cleaning of the battery, cables and battery tray are no longer necessary to keep the damaging effect of the sulfuric acid from ruining the surrounding equipment.
Let's take this apart, and following in the tradition of the various fact checking organizations we'll assign it from 1 to 4 Snake oil bottles.

During charging, the chemical process taking place breaks down water into hydrogen, an explosive gas, and oxygen, which corrodes battery posts, cable ends, and any surrounding metallic parts.

We'll give this 1 Snake Oil Bottle. Yes, passing a current through a battery while charging does break the bonds between the hydrogen atoms and the oxygen atom. Yes, oxygen does cause corrosion when it is ionized and yes hydrogen is explosive, actually it just burns very rapidly. The problem with this statement is when oxygen formed it is unstable until combines with something, during charging the oxygen ions combine with each other to form stable O2 molecules. The air we breathe is about 20% O2. The corrosion we see on batteries is mostly due to the sulfur compounds that escape from the battery.

Continual overcharging increases the internal temperature of the battery, accelerating the destruction of the battery plates and leading to premature failure.

Another 1 Snake Oil Bottle for this statement. Yes, overcharging will damage batteries, a contemporary multistage battery charger can prevent this. It is misleading to assert that Thermoil will somehow prevent over charging.

The balanced Battery De-Mister® mixture in the battery increases the re-combination of the hydrogen and oxygen gases over a conventional battery and greatly extends the intervals between water additions.

This gets the full 4 Snake Oil Bottle treatment. Yes, combining hydrogen and oxygen does create water, it also creates a lot of energy, it is an exothermic reaction, that's why hydrogen explodes and burns. The problem is that to get the reaction started it is necessary to provide some initial energy to break the H2 molecules and O2 molecules into less stable H+ and O- ions, once those bonds are broken, the H+ and O- ions combine to form water and release a lot of energy which breaks more bonds and repeats. This doesn't just happen with H2 and O2 molecules trapped under a oil film. (This Youtube channel has some cool videos demonstrating properties of hydrogen and the other elements: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtESv1e7ntJaLJYKIO1FoYw)

When an oil battery is overcharged, the hydrogen and oxygen gases migrating to the electrolyte surface are slowed by the oil, greatly reducing the acid mist and fumes generated in the charging process.

This deserves 1 Snake Oil Bottle for being misleading. The oil may slow the rate at which the gases bubble out of the electrolyte, but the amount gas formed will be a function of the current passed through the battery while charging. The oil will probably slow the bubbles because the oil molecules are larger and "stickier" than water molecules.

The oil condenses the hydrogen and oxygen gases, returns the water molecules back into the cell and virtually eliminates the sulfuric acid mist forced out the vent during the charging process.

Another 4 Snake Oil Bottle Claim. Condensation generally means changes the physical state of a gas into a liquid. Water vapor condenses at 212* F (also the boiling point), hydrogen condenses at -453* F. That is just not going to happen in a battery on a boat.

With virtually no mist and much less gassing, the battery top remains free of acid deposits, thus the chemistry of the electrolyte remains the same while greatly reducing water consumption, toxic fumes, explosion and thus eliminating post and cable corrosion while reducing current leakage across the battery cover. Frequent cleaning of the battery, cables and battery tray are no longer necessary to keep the damaging effect of the sulfuric acid from ruining the surrounding equipment.

Another 4 Snake Oil Bottle award. This simply restates more emphatically earlier statements and contradicts itself. An earlier statement claims the corrosion is caused by oxygen escaping, now the company claims (at least more correctly) that the off gassed sulfuric acid causes it. You can't have it both ways. Perhaps more importantly, this is statement claims to "cure what ails you" making promises that can't be substantiated.

The makers of Thermoil may believe in their product and they may believe that it really works, but they don't provide any substantiation to their claims other than some distorted logic and scientific sounding gobbledygook. Folks like this prey on the gullibility of others and laugh all the way to the bank.

The scientific claims they make and the lack of substantiation are bad enough, read the history of Thermoil that they are indeed a persecuted company, the target of a conspiracy by the battery manufacturer's to put them out of business. Then there is the 100% guarantee, guarantee of what? And when it doesn't work as advertised, how do you prove it didn't work?

Finally, the website lists the company headquarter's address as 4510 West Pine St., Appleton WI. Check it out.
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
If you are running FLA batteries you should try the WaterMizer battery caps, they do a good job of capturing the boiled-off acid vapor and returning it to the battery. Your battery tops will stay much dryer and free of acid film and that is a big improvement for corrosion management.