Bargers at the start and a protest

[JRT]

Good points and helpful. I'll try to apply them next time for sure.

The start was crowded with I think 14 boats and originally I planned to hang back and stay out of the way. But we caught some puffs and I figuded I'd go with it.

 

[JimInPB]

All good!
Here is what I tell people about starting. If you are:
1 - truly close hauled on starboard
2 - will cross the line on your current course
3 - will not arrive at the line before the starting signal

YOU ARE GOLDEN. No one below you can take you up, everyone clear ahead of you is early, everyone to windward of you cannot come down. Beautiful.

In the case of class racing, I'll pretty much buy that as the way that things should be. In the case of PHRF racing, where one boat may be able to point much higher than another, do you see the possibility of a better pointing boat coming up under a gunk-holer & calling him for barging, even though the windward boat is pointed as high as he is physically able to go?

The question is just off the top of my head. I didn't go back to the book & read up on it yet.

 

[jssailem]

everyone clear ahead of you is early

What to do with the “clear ahead boat “ that luffs his jib to slow the boat so as not to cross the line to early?

 

[Jackdaw]

In the case of class racing, I'll pretty much buy that as the way that things should be. In the case of PHRF racing, where one boat may be able to point much higher than another, do you see the possibility of a better pointing boat coming up under a gunk-holer & calling him for barging, even though the windward boat is pointed as high as he is physically able to go?

The question is just off the top of my head. I didn't go back to the book & read up on it yet.

Remember that barging really only happens on a boat that is reaching. There is a possibility of what you describe happening in handicap racing (rules make no allowance for maximum pointing ability); but most modern boat can point close to 45 degrees. And if they are pointing, they are unlikely to be in your way if you are pointing as well. If you need to luff, luff and make them luff as well; but that's different. Otherwise everyone rumbles on to the line. No need to get into a pissing match with a slow boat at the start. Foot off, accelerate, then drive right under them.

 

[Jackdaw]

What to do with the “clear ahead boat “ that luffs his jib to slow the boat so as not to cross the line to early?

This can get complex....

If one boat is luffing close to the line that likely means they are early. As the goal is to get to the line 'on time and at full speed', it is unlikely if he is stopped just short of the line for any other reason. If you are timed well and he is on your line, you have a decision to make. You have to figure out how far down the line he will need to turn down to build up speed. If its a lot, go above him and take his place. A big gap will open below you where he was. If it looks like he will just 'trim and go', then go below him, and then use the gap below you as you gas pedal to foot for speed. Remember, you always want the bigger gap BELOW you.

A larger group of boats luffing near the line is a One Design tactic called a dial-up. These boat will sit next to each other in a line luffing just below the line, then trim in and go just before the start. This takes great skill. Fleets like Laser to J22s do this all the time. Obviously is it very hard or impossible to get into the middle of this line once it has formed. But you rarely see this in handicap racing; the different performance capabilities make it bad for the slower boats.

But in the right conditions you can mix it up.. We recently had a ratings banded race where we started with the faster more nimble J22 fleet, which contains two national champs. But the breeze was good for us so we stuck BlueJ right in there and dialed-up with them!

 

[shemandr]

OK since this has become a clinic I have another question. Or maybe it's a realization. Barging doesn't only happen at the favored end of the line? In other words if a boat were approaching the mid-line on a close hauled course, boats coming down the line on reaches, if overlapped, are without rights and subject to being luffed to head to wind - right?

 

[Jackdaw]

OK since this has become a clinic I have another question. Or maybe it's a realization. Barging doesn't only happen at the favored end of the line? In other words if a boat were approaching the mid-line on a close hauled course, boats coming down the line on reaches, if overlapped, are without rights and subject to being luffed to head to wind - right?

That's correct how the rules work... but its not barging because (and this is key) they have a PLACE TO GO. If you are reaching mid-line and a close hauled boat comes up below you, you just turn up. Either there is room or you start a domino effect of boats turning up. But you are clear and will be able to start once you turn down.

Boats in the barging area are windward of the RC boat and have to turn up into the boat, and as there is no mark room at the boat there is no relief offered by the rules. Get in a real jam and you have to hope the person you barged turns down and lets you in so you don't crash into the committee boat.

Beyond the fiberglass risk, the reason that is considered such a 'd1ck move' is that even if you do your spins, they had to sacrifice their great start to let you in so you didn't crash. You might do your turns, but that doesn't help them with the time/distance that they lost.

 

[Jackdaw]

In other words if a boat were approaching the mid-line on a close hauled course, boats coming down the line on reaches, if overlapped, are without rights and subject to being luffed to head to wind - right?

Also remember that is this case the windward reaching boat is almost ALWAYS overlapped. Why? I'll let the 'class' answer! ;^)

 

[weinie]

Also remember that is this case the windward reaching boat is almost ALWAYS overlapped. Why? I'll let the 'class' answer! ;^)

Trying to bleed off speed before the gun?

 

[Parsons]

Also remember that is this case the windward reaching boat is almost ALWAYS overlapped. Why? I'll let the 'class' answer! ;^)

Because of the angle ... he's more parallel to the starting line than the close-hauled boats, so ever other starter has to cross his beam to get to the line.
BTW, do any of your fleets use a 'barging mark' positioned behind the committee boat for a little extra safety? We started using one religiously after an incident during a particularly gusty start where a racing boat was overpowered and rounded up at the start -- crash! The local rules define the mark, and the line leading back to it, as part of the committee boat.

 

[Jackdaw]

Because of the angle ... he's more parallel to the starting line than the close-hauled boats, so ever other starter has to cross his beam to get to the line.
BTW, do any of your fleets use a 'barging mark' positioned behind the committee boat for a little extra safety? We started using one religiously after an incident during a particularly gusty start where a racing boat was overpowered and rounded up at the start -- crash! The local rules define the mark, and the line leading back to it, as part of the committee boat.

For sure its the angle. As boat turns down relative to other boats, its transom line swings AFT, widening it overlap line. Reaching straight down the line and every boat you can see forward or next to you has overlap.

Re the barging mark, we do not use it at WYC but I've sailed in places that have. Its a solid idea if you have boats that haven't figured this out.

 

[plenny7]

I find this thread to be fascinating, and educational. And I don't even race. Thanks to everyone posting.

 

[Jackdaw]

RRS still uses "overtaking" as a reference for windsurfer racing, but not for real boats.
B11 & B11 part II (C)

That's interesting I never knew that. It actually only for 'expression' competition, or freestyle. So not really racing, but more a way to manage ROW while waiting for the 'right wave'!

 

[JimInPB]

Back in the old days, when mast-to-beam was still a thing, the whole overtaking boat concept also applied to bigger boats. At this point, that is little more than a trip down memory lane.

 

[JimInPB]

A larger group of boats luffing near the line is a One Design tactic called a dial-up. These boat will sit next to each other in a line luffing just below the line, then trim in and go just before the start. This takes great skill. Fleets like Laser to J22s do this all the time. Obviously is it very hard or impossible to get into the middle of this line once it has formed.

Small cats, like Nacra 17's, often depower at the line as a standard starting practice too. When they have a bit of current behind them, things can sometimes get interesting.

Once that kind of line has formed, it is hard to get into the middle, if the RC has set the line length correctly. If they leave a little too much wiggle room in the line length, not only can later arrivals slip through a slot at speed, but it also opens up the possibility of some wise guy port tacking the fleet & causing the special kind of mayhem that can sometimes accompany that little stunt.

 

[JRacer]

View attachment 157127

I'm saving this one for future use! ;-)

 

[JimInPB]

I'm saving this one for future use! ;-)

That's also known as a breach of rule 69

 

[Jackdaw]

I'm saving this one for future use! ;-)

It's one of my personal favorites. I have no big problem when people break rules when its unavoidable, or sometimes when they don't know the rules. But when someone does to it gain advance or game the system, I pull out that baby.

WYC is pretty hardcore about this as well. Get stupid and you will likely see the PC add a RRS#2 to the protest form, and that makes the DSQ a DND. That will wreck your whole series.

 

[Ben4195]

Thanks guys for the discussion. And thanks JD for the thorough analysis. I think I learn something new in every thread that you participate in.

 

[glaufman]

Like to add my 2 cents... Just so noone gets into trouble... There is one situation in which you could owe room to the barger...
If you have to alter course to squeeze out the barger... Do this while they can still tack away, cool, you defended your rights... But when u alter course you owe them room to keep clear... So if you wait until they can't tack without hitting the RC, then squeezing them is your foul.