Bargers at the start and a protest

Jul 5, 2005
217
Beneteau 361 Sandusky Harbor Marina
The boat on which I crew did our first protest last night. It was a very fun race, and a very exciting start. I'll see if I can post a link to the video here. The Catalina 27 you see in the video was only "racing" to get the points, as she was alone, but unfortunately she chose to be on the aggressive end of the start line.

I'm the one waving the protest flag, and this was the first time any of us had done that, so I'll admit that I may not have executed the protest correctly.

Thought I'd share because it was very exciting (for me anyway). :)
 
  • Like
Likes: Jimmy
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Fun video!

But what a mess. Here are some thoughts.

The C27 clearly fouled you via RSS11. Her action was not aggressive, just ignorant of the rules and her surroundings. She should not have been there, and didn't see you. The other boats were aggressive or unaware of the rules.

The Hunterlina 25 fouled you as well, as in both cases you had to turn down to avoid then.

The boat that passed closest to the RC boat did not foul you, but fouled the 25. The 25 might be able to get exonerated if she can prove that she could not go up because of the other boat to windward.

Did you file a protest? Was it upheld?

Some observations:

RRS61 says you must hail PROTEST immediately, and 'display' a red flag as soon as possible, and display it until you are no longer racing. Most PC do not consider waving it displaying it.

Why is this important? PCs hate protest hearings, and love to toss them on the 'valid protest' criteria. Fail one of the technicalities, and your protest is not heard.

Also, TALK to boats. And sometimes talking rules to a boat confuses them. It assumes they know how the rule apples to them at the time. I'll often them then what I need them to do, or what they cannot. 'You CANNOT start there. You CANNOT make me turn down. You have to get out of there NOW'.

After the protest keep talking. After doing a clear protest, I'd be talking to the skipper. 'Hey man, that was a clear barge. I'm protesting because I had to avoid you, and you'll lose. You're wasting your race if you don't do your spins'.

This also has the upside of the hearing not cutting into your beer time.
 
Last edited:
Jul 5, 2005
217
Beneteau 361 Sandusky Harbor Marina
JD, thanks for the input and yes, it was quite a mess and very exciting. The racers in question ALL know the rules, even the young lady. The wife of the skipper on the Hunter, who was also one of the Hunter's crew last night, is the one who actually explained the rules to us a couple years ago when she witnessed a boat barging us where we failed to protest. I'll make note of the rules regarding protests from now on. I don't know if the C27 did her spins, but the Hunter 260 says he did, and I believe him because he's a pretty stand-up guy. We ended up winning the race, but we probably would have lost to the Hunter if he had not done his spins due to the time we owe him on our 3 mile course. His phrf is 228 and ours is 200. That C27 is usually one of our toughest competitors, but last night the young lady was alone and not able to properly race. I think she started on the aggressive end simply out of habit.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Ok I'm not understanding this. I just reviewed RRS Rule #11:
11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.
The poster and the Catalina 27 are on the same tack. They are not overlapped in my understanding of overlap. In fact, the poster's boat is over taking the Catalina 27. So why doesn't Rule 12 apply?
And I thought "Barging" was taken out of the RRS a decade or so ago. Anyway I thought it was the practice of coming around (usually the committee boat) very close and trying to squeeze in-between the first boat and the committee boat. It is risky and doesn't make you popular but I'm not aware of it being a violation of the rules. You can get the daylights luffed out of you as the barger. You might even get protested for not keeping clear when a boat luffs. But bargers get in because the other boats decide to put the bow down and build up some speed.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Ok I'm not understanding this. I just reviewed RRS Rule #11:
11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.
The poster and the Catalina 27 are on the same tack. They are not overlapped in my understanding of overlap. In fact, the poster's boat is over taking the Catalina 27. So why doesn't Rule 12 apply?
And I thought "Barging" was taken out of the RRS a decade or so ago. Anyway I thought it was the practice of coming around (usually the committee boat) very close and trying to squeeze in-between the first boat and the committee boat. It is risky and doesn't make you popular but I'm not aware of it being a violation of the rules. You can get the daylights luffed out of you as the barger. You might even get protested for not keeping clear when a boat luffs. But bargers get in because the other boats decide to put the bow down and build up some speed.
They are overlapped with the C27 the entire time its in the picture. The overlap line is drawn perpendicular to the ahead boat's centerline, across its transom. If any part of the trailing boat is over that line, there is overlap. So per RSS11 the windward boat must keep clear.

The word barging does not appear in the RRS. It is a term that describes any boat that is above the layline to the RC boat. In this situation, you are windward to all (starboard!) starting boats, and must reach into the start while they are close hauled. It is terribly risky because you have no rights whatsoever and your only hope is to be able to cross over them, or tack on their line. Remember that there is no mark room at the RC boat, and no such thing as proper course before the start. Otherwise you have to bail out. In that video every other boat was barging.
 

weinie

.
Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Why did the RC set the starting line like that?!??!
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
To your last item, barging is only 'illegal' if a boat protests. In the absence of other boats its a fine way to start at the RC. Reach in and go. The issue is that if a boat a risk of barging goes in too far, it can get caught in a situation where the ROW boats(s) cannot turn down (to avoid collision per RSS14), and the barger is hooked up behind the RC boat with nowhere to go. This gets expensive.

One other thing, OVERTAKING is really not a racing term. That a COLREGS deal. The RRS is mostly state based. You are clear ahead, overlapped, or clear astern.

There are rules that describe what happens when the state changes, but that more detail.
 
Last edited:
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Why did the RC set the starting line like that?!??!
Like what? The line seems pretty square, and the boat filming was bang on the layline. They nailed it, the other boats simply should not have been there.
 

weinie

.
Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Like what? The line seems pretty square, and the boat filming was bang on the layline. They nailed it, the other boats simply should not have been there.
i stand corrected. I didn't see the boat all the way to windward turn up all the way after the committee boat. Looked like he was reaching for a while.
 
  • Like
Likes: Jackdaw
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
i stand corrected. I didn't see the boat all the way to windward turn up all the way after the committee boat. Looked like he was reaching for a while.
That's it.

When racing we are always looking at the relative angle of other boats; being 'bow up' or 'bow down' on us. Its best when going upwind and looking at other boats for wind-shifts, but it help here too. Get good at it and you can see 3-4 degree differences in boats.

The filming boat was close-hauled. A nearby boat so 'bow-down' on them MUST be reaching.
 

gdudik

.
Oct 25, 2017
87
Catalina 22 Vancouver, WA
On @Jackdaw ’s line about talking, not just yelling the rule name, it was always beaten into my head in college racing that a hail of “leeward” should always be immediately followed by “head up!”

And if we were just practicing, it would usually be followed by some aspersions cast at the fouling skipper’s mother.
 

JRT

.
Feb 14, 2017
2,037
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
Following for learning. My first race was a drift fest at the start so nobody was making any great headway. It looked very similar to the video. I was the windward close hauled starboard tack and just trying to maintain some headway and not luff my sails. A Hunter 25 was coming from behind and said I was barging him which was confusing to me as I was maintaining the heading I had been and had not changed it or adjusted it to cross him. He was moving pretty well but as soon as he came along us we blocked his wind and he sails stalled. At this point we had not crossed the start line. I assume I did something wrong, but just don't understand what or why since I made no advert or intentional moves to block him. In fact I even asked him what he wanted me to do and he said don't worry about it and did not protest.

My first race was just for fun and to se if we could do it and this has sort be bugging me a bit as the last thing I want to do is go out and mess up others be being clueless.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Following for learning. My first race was a drift fest at the start so nobody was making any great headway. It looked very similar to the video. I was the windward close hauled starboard tack and just trying to maintain some headway and not luff my sails. A Hunter 25 was coming from behind and said I was barging him which was confusing to me as I was maintaining the heading I had been and had not changed it or adjusted it to cross him. He was moving pretty well but as soon as he came along us we blocked his wind and he sails stalled. At this point we had not crossed the start line. I assume I did something wrong, but just don't understand what or why since I made no advert or intentional moves to block him. In fact I even asked him what he wanted me to do and he said don't worry about it and did not protest.

My first race was just for fun and to se if we could do it and this has sort be bugging me a bit as the last thing I want to do is go out and mess up others be being clueless.
It's REALLY hard to barge if you are close hauled. You were probably reaching but didn't know it. I see this all the time. In the screenshot below the video boat IS close hauled and on the layline. They've got it nailed. The red lines show the transom/overlapped lines. Everyone else is:

1) Reaching
2) Windward
3) Overlapped
4) Barging

The lady in the C27 might not have thought so but you cat see she is. Remember, if you are close hauled the only thing a boat clear behind can hit is your transom. That's not overlapped, so you maintain ROW.

start.jpg
 
Last edited:

JRacer

.
Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
or just up up UP UP UP! UP! F%sKING UP!
I would usually be inclined to precede the last part with "You Are ..."

More barges on that line than in the MS River!
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
I was the windward close hauled starboard tack and just trying to maintain some headway and not luff my sails. A Hunter 25 was coming from behind and said I was barging him which was confusing to me as I was maintaining the heading I had been and had not changed it or adjusted it to cross him. He was moving pretty well but as soon as he came along us we blocked his wind and he sails stalled.
Like jackdaw said, you may have thought you were close hauled, but either you actually weren't or he was in a boat that could point higher. The fact that you didn't change your course doesn't really mean you weren't barging. Fact is that if it's before the start and there's a boat closing in from leeward of you, you're probably wrong. He has rights, and his only obligation is to give you room to keep clear (no sudden turns that you can't avoid). Good for you though for learning. Next time it happens you'll know what to do. And maybe the time after that you'll be the guy in the favored position.
 
  • Like
Likes: JRT
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
...One other thing, OVERTAKING is really not a racing term. That a COLREGS deal. The RRS is mostly state based. You are clear ahead, overlapped, or clear astern....
RRS still uses "overtaking" as a reference for windsurfer racing, but not for real boats.
B11 & B11 part II (C)
 
  • Like
Likes: Jackdaw
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Following for learning. My first race was a drift fest at the start so nobody was making any great headway. It looked very similar to the video. I was the windward close hauled starboard tack and just trying to maintain some headway and not luff my sails. A Hunter 25 was coming from behind and said I was barging him which was confusing to me as I was maintaining the heading I had been and had not changed it or adjusted it to cross him. He was moving pretty well but as soon as he came along us we blocked his wind and he sails stalled. At this point we had not crossed the start line. I assume I did something wrong, but just don't understand what or why since I made no advert or intentional moves to block him. In fact I even asked him what he wanted me to do and he said don't worry about it and did not protest.

My first race was just for fun and to se if we could do it and this has sort be bugging me a bit as the last thing I want to do is go out and mess up others be being clueless.
It's a little hard for me to make a 100% clear interpretation without having been there. Since you seem to indicate that the wind was dwindling away, I am curious if you may have been in a condition where two different wind patterns may have been opposing each other & two nearby boats may have been seeing wind from slightly different directions. In a situation like that, I'm not really sure exactly what you are supposed to do.

Fortunately it sounds like you were sailing in a fleet of gentlemen who saw the value of good intention & were looking for a genuinely fair challenge on the course, which is nice.

In the earlier example, the video gives a lot more details to work with.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Well, I said I didn't understand. I'm not arguing with Jackdaw - trust me. I just am not good at recognizing when an overlap exists when boats are on different points of sail. I have trouble with that. Hopefully that simple explanation will help. And I always thought that barging is something that happens primarily on or near the line. This has expanded my understanding of what barging is. And don't worry I wasn't a barger. I preferred to start a bit down the line rather to get into the scrum at the favored end.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Well, I said I didn't understand. I'm not arguing with Jackdaw - trust me. I just am not good at recognizing when an overlap exists when boats are on different points of sail. I have trouble with that. Hopefully that simple explanation will help. And I always thought that barging is something that happens primarily on or near the line. This has expanded my understanding of what barging is. And don't worry I wasn't a barger. I preferred to start a bit down the line rather to get into the scrum at the favored end.
All good!
Here is what I tell people about starting. If you are:
1 - truly close hauled on starboard
2 - will cross the line on your current course
3 - will not arrive at the line before the starting signal

YOU ARE GOLDEN. No one below you can take you up, everyone clear ahead of you is early, everyone to windward of you cannot come down. Beautiful.