Anchor Setting Comparison (Video)

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Re: Late to game

Anyone with access to a farm field can also run these tests. Just find a field that has been harvested, a corn field is good and drop the anchor between the rows and pull. If the ground is firm enough to drive on turn and pull 90 degrees from your first pull and see if you break out and reset.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,759
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Knockoff anchors?

Marine equipment manufacturing companies certainly try to produce quality products, because they want to continue their business operations, and poor quality will eventually result in lower sales.
David, what makes marine products any more susceptible to the basic laws of economics and production than any other industry? Snake oil salesmen are still all over.

As for Plastimo: hmm, I'd sure run right out and buy a knockoff anchor from someone whose name is plastic! :snooty: :):D:confused:

Actually knockoff anything when it comes to basic safety gear is something you ought to carefully review before you buy. Their other products are safe enough to either have been made NEW by them or good enough to trust as knockoffs...radar reflector, life raft, ring lifebouy, compass, and water bladder. Anchors? I hardly think so. And I don't care how long they'd been making radar reflectors, either.

Maine Sail has discussed stainless steel as material for anchors in quite some detail, no need to copy that. I sure hope you're right about your particular anchor.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Re: Knockoff anchors?

316L stainless steel is very good material but is totally unnecessary for an anchor. It looks pretty when it is hanging on the bow roller but galvanized steel will serve just as well and be stronger. SS can look great right up to the day it breaks. Galvanized steel on the other hand can look absolutely awful and retain its strength until you can't stand the sight of it.
 
Jun 3, 2004
131
BC 37 Back Creek, Annapolis
Rocna on our H41

Time to chime in to this great thread since it's so valuable for others doing anchor research, IMO. Wanting to improve performance of our previous ground tackle that came stock on our 2005 H41, we installed a Rocna 25 (25kg, 55#) as our primary last spring. The improvement was startling. Instead of often doing a slow drag when going astern to set the anchor as was our past experience, we now have to be careful to ease to a stop as soon as we drop anchor for fear of putting too much strain on the deck hardware. We are very happy with the upgrade and sleep better at night on anchor.

We use 100' of G4 HT 5/16" chain spliced to 200' of 5/8" rode, all attached to the anchor by a high test Crosby shackle, no swivel. Stock Hunter anchor roller. All our anchoring is in soft muddy bottoms of the Chesapeake Bay.

The 5-boat raft in the photo is all on our Rocna on the Corsica River this August. We are the white boat in the middle. Wind was light at the time but the next morning it was blowing ~10 knots (and the powerboat on the end had left by then). Warren and other Herrington Harbour folks if you are reading this, the photo of the Rocna in evening light was taken in the channel entrance to HHS where we had a transient slip on the floating dock--marvelous location and view for the night.
 

Attachments

Feb 1, 2007
75
Auckland NZ
Ross you may have missed my point about 316 stainless. It is expensive enough as it is, and a quality spec for marine usage, but is not very strong nor is it designed to be. It's great for deck gear, but not anchors. Anchors advertising their 316 construction are not doing themselves any favors with anyone who knows anything about steels. 316 is about a quarter - yes a quarter - of the strength of the high tensile steel a Rocna uses in its shank. Stainless which matches that strength yet retains the marine properties of 316 is extremely costly. Hence the fallacy of cheap stainless anchors.

That aside there's nothing wrong with a quality stainless anchor. The problems you hear about come from the cheapies as above (see my photo, this is very typical), with the real cheapies not even using 316 and suffering from poor casting processes/finishing - then you get the crevice corrosion and nasty hidden failures waiting to happen. If the steel is of an appropriate grade and properly worked, a stainless anchor is fantastic - looks decent (if you have a deck polishing monkey :)), and never needs re-galvanizing - assuming you're willing to shell out the requisite extra cash; I'd never argue they're value for money!

 
Feb 26, 2004
22,759
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Just don't get it

We have a 2,000# sailboat. The 11# 316L ss Plastimo Claw Anchor will be around long after I'm gone. The 5/16" 316L ss chain has a break strength of 2,850#, 1/2" rode, which we have, has tensile strength of 5,670#. You fellows with much larger sailboats have much more demand on your ground tackle systems then we do! We are fine! Next boat we'll certainly go to school on all that we've learned from this web site!
Aha, ss chain, too!

"Next boat" may come way before you'd like it to.

And maybe, no, you're not "fine."

Why wait to go to school?

David, what part of reply #98 on this very topic by Craig Smith was not clear to you? The part about:

The claw is a cheap single piece casting made from low grade steel. You would barely purchase the raw steel for a Rocna for the retail price of the claw. David, the genuine Bruce from which your claw is copied was heat treated and finished to very high specifications, and cost a lot more. After its patents expired, they were unable to lower their costs to compete with the knock-offs, and, unwilling to compromise the product, simply ceased producing it.

and

Moreover, re 316 stainless. Cheap stainless is one of my big bugbears. Stainless is relatively weak compared to galvanized steel; 316 possesses even less strength than the mild steel we would consider inadequate for the shank on any anchor. Nevertheless you will frequently see it advertised like it's a good thing. High tensile stainless is extremely expensive. Ultimately, if a stainless anchor doesn't cost 3-5 times its galvanized equivalent, a shortcut's been taken somewhere. The cheap stainless claws you see looking shiny in chandleries are junk.


If your shiny neat new boat was my boat, I would take that 11# shiny anchor and put it over my mantle and go out and buy a 16.5# or 22# galvanized real new generation anchor heavy enough to dig into a bottom with galvanized chain. Do you have SS shackles, too??? I'd diss them also.

I like your boat enough to want you to be able to keep it.
 
Feb 1, 2007
75
Auckland NZ
We have a 2,000# sailboat. The 11# 316L ss Plastimo Claw Anchor will be around long after I'm gone. The 5/16" 316L ss chain has a break strength of 2,850#, 1/2" rode, which we have, has tensile strength of 5,670#. You fellows with much larger sailboats have much more demand on your ground tackle systems then we do! We are fine! Next boat we'll certainly go to school on all that we've learned from this web site!
You have 316 chain? David if you can afford quality 316 chain from Peerless or similar, why would you even care about $200 extra for a quality anchor? If on the other hand the chain is of similar quality to your anchor - i.e. it is uncertified and of dubious origin - then have you thought about the risks you are taking with your safety and that of your crew? I am perfectly serious. Are you aware that even medium tensile bog standard G40 5/16" chain has a break of just under 12,000 lb? (I think you have mistaken WLL for break, unless that figure's an honest assessment by the manufacturer of truly rubbish chain).

Your boat may be small but can still get you into trouble. Small boats pitch and sail around a lot more than large boats, and require more attention to shock absorption etc. A bad situation may only be a once-in-a-lifetime event, but then that's the case with large cruisers too - the idea is to be prepared. I am not trying to be condescending, but please think these things through. Who made your chain? Is it proofed/certified as all anchor chain should be?
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Dserrel—

I would point out that you probably don't anchor a lot. Most of the people who have shiny stainless steel anchors don't. The reason is pretty clear—stainless steel suffers from crevice corrosion that is CUMULATIVE when it is buried for long periods of time in mud... if you were cruising long term, and anchoring out for days at a time, going with a stainless steel anchor and chain would be very foolish. As pointed out previously, a stainless steel anchor or chain can look just fine just prior to failing without warning...where a galvanized anchor and chain of the same size and weight would have significantly more strength and take considerably longer to weaken to the point of failure and would give you plenty of visible warning signs prior to failing.
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,966
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
The real answer to the difference in performance can easily be seen at 1:36 of the video. That is when they are side by side in the hard sand. The CQR is tan color and the rocna is grey color. Simple:)
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
David, you have received good counsel from several knowledgeable people here. You may take it or not. You are convinced that you have made the right decision and I rather doubt that anyone can influence you otherwise. But I think that you protest too much.
 
Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
I don't.

I don't know much about SS but I would like to throw out something for all to chew on: If these SS anchors are so bad and are splitting at the seams, then it would leave one to believe that boats have been totalled due to these anchors and the companies would have been sued for selling faulty equipment. After all, we are not talking about the anchor not setting or the anchor not staying put, but actual defectiveness of the anchor itself. I can't see how anybody couldn't fault a manufacture for such an outcome, but yet, I've never heard of such a case. Has anybody here?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Ahoy Sailingdog,

We've only anchored about 2 dozen times since this past May! In the last four years the longest we've left our anchor in the mud may have been for a few nights before we raised the anchor and moved, even when we were in Norfork, VA anchored off Hosiptal Point for just over a week. So I suspect the opportunity for crevice corrosion to acumulate is minimal.
David,

Crevice corrosion begins nearly immediately once stainless is devoid of oxygen and in salt water. These effects are cumulative. A number of yeas ago I dropped a $350.00 stainless Schaefer genny car over board one day while washing my boat. I dove but could not see nor find it without a dive light. It was three weeks before I could get a diver to retrieve it. The block was destroyed and heavily pitted in a very short amount of time sitting in the very silty soft mud. I tired to polish it but it was to no avail as the surface was so pitted.

An important point about stainless chain is that the welds on stainless chain have usually not been relieved or passivated from the welding process as it is quite expensive to do this, even for quality anchor chain companies like Acco, Peerless etc. who sell 5/16" ss chain for $20+ per foot.. These welds may develop crevice corrosion relatively quickly, within days, under water and cannot easily be inspected. They can also develop galvanic corrosion because the weld stick is not always the same composition as the extruded chain stock.

The main point is that stainless can be destroyed when buried in oxygen-starved bottoms in SALT water. This is part of the reason the alloy in prop shafts is not 316L though at the surface the oxygen content in the water may be hing enough to prevent crevice corrosion & micro stress cracking.

These photos of stainless chain were posted on another forum by a member for RI.



And a stainless shackle used with galvanized chain. This photo and the quote below were by Alain Poiraud the author of "The COmplete Anchoring Handbook" and also the inventor of may anchors such as the Spade:

Well the following photo is not exactly chain.. but shackle.



this shackle was not used on a mooring line but between a galavanised chain and anchor..
I will NEVER use a stainless steel anchor on my own boat..
You'll probably never have a problem with your size boat but do be aware that stainless can fail with little warning while still looking fine and that any crevice corrosion or micro stress cracking is cumulative. It's just good info to know.

The thing that scares me most about your chain is the dubious lack of information on the vendors web site. It's certainly a good thing that you over sized it.

I see no certifications for that chain, no country of origin not even NACM specs or a statement that the chain meets NACM specs..? You've put your trust into something that lists no certifications, nor country of origin, and sells for far less than comparable chain from well respected & highly reputable manufacturers. For example 5/16 US made G4 grade 316 stainless chain sells for about $20.50 per foot while the chain you bought sells for $6.25 per foot. As Craig said the quality of stainless you'll want to use in any anchoring system is VERY expensive.

The maker of my mooring pendants, a Maine based cordage supplier, has to test each lot of stainless thimbles they receive into stock because the manufacturing and quality control has totally gone to pot with their foreign supplier. They can no longer even source these thimbles in the US so are forced to run lots through batch metallurgy testing because the quality of the stainless is so erratic.
 
Jun 5, 2004
249
Hunter 36 Newburyport, MA
Delta??

I notice from Rocna's latest (press_0612_wm_ym_testing.pdf) that both the Rocna and Mason held to 5,000# twice, while the Delta only did so once.

However, the Delta's other 3 graph bars were about twice the height (3,000# holding force, vs 1,500#) of both the Rocna's and Manson's 2 non-5,000# bars.

(The Spade held to 5,000# 3 times, but its 4th 500# bar gives me the willies. My Fortress looks wonderful, until I consider re-setting - a concern in tidal rivers that such testing ignores.)

It appears from this test (and from the earlier testing PDF on the Rocna web-site) that the Delta is superior (by quite a bit) to the other (non-rollbar) anchors, and represents an "almost there" evolution that has now been succeeded by the still-more-advanced Rocna/Manson design.

Having had good luck with my 35# Delta (and 300ft of 5/16 G4 chain) in much more limited experience than many of you, I was considering a 44# Delta for increased confidence (15k# 36ft boat), but attracted by the Rocna.

Based on the test results, I'm having a hard time reconciling the additional expense of a 33# Rocna. (Arguments about holding power from smaller sizes make me uncomfortable sacrificing pure brute weight.)

Why no comments on Deltas?

Does no one else use them? Excepting Rocna/Manson they appear a lot better than the others and cheaper than Rocnas/Mansons/Spades, if not fashionable.

Al
s/v Persephone
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,759
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Denial

I'll definitely have to keep a close watch on and persistant inspection of the chain.
Some posters have warned about the use of ss anchors.
...and persistant inspection of. Hopefully one day we will upgrade to a much larger sailboat, and make better ground tackle decisions.
This whole ground tackle issue...is not as simple as it would seem!
Ahoy, David,

I applaud you for wanting to keep a "close watch" on your anchor and chain and shackle, those pesky little things that keep your boat connected to the bottom and off the rocks or shore.

But that is possibly going be too late, because the way I read Maine Sail's [and others] report on ss used in chains and shackles, you'll be way up on the beach or worse before you know it.

And since the old proverb "only as strong as its weakest link" actually applies in this case, please help me understand how you can possibly think that you can keep an eye on it.

If it lets go after you inspect it, it'll be underwater. If you have to inspect it to this level of scrutiny, it is not reliable gear. Of course, we inspect our anchor and gear each time, but not for "invisible" crevice corrosion that we cannot possibly see. I make sure the shackle pins are where they should be: that's pretty much it, I don't worry about the continuity of each link of chain or have to remove each pin on the two shackles to assure myself they are not corroding from the inside out.

You say it's not as simple as it appears.

In this case it is quite simple: You have an accident simply waiting to happen.

You are in denial.

As I've noted a few times on this thread, I admire your passion and enthusiasm, your boat and your crew.

I would recommend that you apply that passion to taking each and every one of these "storm warnings" very seriously and take action on them.

Each of these warnings is made by people who don't even know you. But we all care.

Each of these warnings indicates that the safest next step you can and should immediately make is to remove the anchoring gear you have on your boat and replace it with whatever choice in anchors you may make but with all galvanized gear.

Stu

PS -- As noted elsewhere, your chain is unreasonably over sized. Please see reply #6 for chain and shackle sizing tables, here: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4990.0.html. For instance, even 1/4 inch chain with 5/16 inch shackles would still be way over sized for your boat, but smaller "strong enough" chain would significantly reduce unnecessary weight forward. A bigger anchor with appropriately sized chain is much better than over sized chain on a small anchor.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,665
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Plastimo is a Navimo company as is Manson. The anchor we have is a Plastimo 11# 316L ss claw anchor. The following is some information regarding ss anchors:

http://www.plastimousa.com/Manson Anchors.htm

This information makes me a little more comfortable with our ss anchor, which I will also keep a close watch on and persistant inspection of.
David,

You seem to be trying to justify your purchase by making unrealistic comparisons to different products that are leagues apart. If you are happy with it, and can sleep at night that is all that matters.

Navimo is a large manufacturer, wholesaler, importer and distributor who only import and represent Manson in the USA. They do not own Manson Anchors.

A 22 pound SS Manson Ray will set you back $1425.00 and a 22 pound Plastimo Manta stainless anchor about $560.00. Manson does not even bother making a stainless anchor under 22 pounds for obvious reasons.

The Ray and Manta are not the same quality anchors & not made by the same company. The only thing they have in common is the US importer/distributor/wholesaler Navimo/Plastimo US. The Ray is one of the most expensive anchors made, more than a Rocna & more than a Manson Supreme. The Ray also holds numerous certifications including Lloyds. I can't seem to find even one certification for the Manta anchors.

Navimo owns the following companies but they only distribute Manson:

Plastimo
Goiot
Lofrans
Max Power
Nuova Rade
Accastillage Bernard
XM Yachting
DNS


From Manson Anchors:

Type Approval Overview
"Manson boasts Lloyd’s Register Type Approval on the Supreme,
Ray, Plough, Kedge, Ultimus and Hiding anchors in the range. This means that the material we use to build the anchors has to be supplied with certificates proving it is supplied from approved Steel Mills. The welders that fabricate the product are all individually LR certified, which means yearly inspections and testing on their welds.
It also means that the welding procedure has been scrutinized by the Naval Architects at Lloyd’s Register EMEA. Overall having type approval from a class society (LR) is the only independent way worldwide to ensure anchors are built to minimum standards and meet minimum requirements."

As I stated before you are unlikely going to see a failure on a 19 footer but the information is good to know so you don't repeat the buying habit of choosing the least expensive stainless equipment you can find.

People experience stainless failures on boats on a regular basis. Chain plates, keel bolts and even bolts fail from crevice corrosion. It happens. When you have an option of using galvy steel, like in an anchoring or mooring system, it's just a good choice.

I would NOT run out and change your gear but when you do decide to upgrade do consider the options.

The harsh reality is that the vast majority of stainless anchors do not get used. My buddy Gerry for example owns a 100 foot motor yacht with a Delta in Stainless. In 12 years of ownership that anchor has been used all of about three times. But it looks good..;)
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
You are probably more at risk of life, limb and property while driving to the super market than you are on your boat.
My adult son told me that I would love "front wheel drive". After a year I told him that I couldn't tell the dfference between my front wheel drive Toyota and my rear wheel drive Volvo. He allowed that for the way I drive it probably wouldn't make any difference. Your ground tackle is probably fine but it is not better than galvanized alloy steel.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,884
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
David.. the critical piece is the "L" after the 316 metal specification for your anchor. The "L" means a special low carbon alloy of 316 (or 304) which is MUCH less succeptable to intergranular stress corrosion and cracking. The polishing on the anchor is not purely cosmetic. Polishing stainless makes it much less liable to pit and start sites where further corrosion can start.. That anchor is fine (if the metal is as specified) . The chain may be another matter.. If it does not state that it is "L"grade, it will definitely end up just like the pictures that MainSail posted. Welding on non-"L" grade pretty much guarantees stress corrosion at the fusion lines or heat affected zones of the weld, if the weld sees a corrodent.. If the specification has an L, it is probably swell! Another thing to remember about stainless, any grade, is to NEVER EVER use chlorine containing cleansers on or close to it. especially where the cleansing agent can get trapped, like in the end of a swedged fitting where the wire goes in.. chlorine just loves to crack stainless!.. The chain might take 3-4 years to begin getting bad enough to worry with, so don't panic. Inspect it carefully for cracks with a magnifying glass a couple of times a season after it ages a bit.. Think about replacing with a vinyl covered galvanized chain when the time comes.
Good luck..
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
I'd point out that one of the primary components of SALT water is Sodium Chloride.... and avoiding the chlorine ion on a boat on salt water is close to impossible.

David.. the critical piece is the "L" after the 316 metal specification for your anchor. The "L" means a special low carbon alloy of 316 (or 304) which is MUCH less succeptable to intergranular stress corrosion and cracking. The polishing on the anchor is not purely cosmetic. Polishing stainless makes it much less liable to pit and start sites where further corrosion can start.. That anchor is fine (if the metal is as specified) . The chain may be another matter.. If it does not state that it is "L"grade, it will definitely end up just like the pictures that MainSail posted. Welding on non-"L" grade pretty much guarantees stress corrosion at the fusion lines or heat affected zones of the weld, if the weld sees a corrodent.. If the specification has an L, it is probably swell! Another thing to remember about stainless, any grade, is to NEVER EVER use chlorine containing cleansers on or close to it. especially where the cleansing agent can get trapped, like in the end of a swedged fitting where the wire goes in.. chlorine just loves to crack stainless!.. The chain might take 3-4 years to begin getting bad enough to worry with, so don't panic. Inspect it carefully for cracks with a magnifying glass a couple of times a season after it ages a bit.. Think about replacing with a vinyl covered galvanized chain when the time comes.
Good luck..
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,884
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Exactly, Dog.. This is the primary reason that swedged fittings crack in the swedged area.. Free chlorine is much worse and quicker acting, but as salt water evaporates in the sun, the concentration of salt gets higher.. The stainless has to be around 120F or above but that happens in full sun in warmer places. The process is cumulative.. meaning that it will stop during cool times or times when the chlorine isn't there.. and starts again when the conditions are right.. Takes a while (years) to accumulate enough damage to be visible sometimes..