Amp hour meter?

Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
I can't find an amp hour meter in the US.
At least not one under $150.
I find a million ammeters for $10, none that count the amp hours. How hard could it be?
It's for solar charging. I only need a 10a meter, no shunt. But it has to count the amp hours. Will be connected to Charge side only.

Any ideas? I spent an hour looking.
All searches came up with the same junk over and over.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,776
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I find a million ammeters for $10, none that count the amp hours. How hard could it be?
It's for solar charging. I only need a 10a meter, no shunt.
No ammeter comes without a shunt. Small ones below generally 25a have internal shunts built inside the meter. It's the way ammeters work.
Ammeters & Shunts 101: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6032.0.html

How hard could it be to count? That's why battery monitors work and cost as much as they do! :) There is circuitry designed that is required to calculate the total amps, beyond just measuring the instantaneous amperage.
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
Skipper,
  1. http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-MPPT-Control_p_4356.html On sale$78.20
  2. https://www.amazon.com/bayite-6-5-1...16236153&sr=1-3&keywords=solar+volt+amp+meter
Is this what you are seeking. You say AMP meter, but aren't you looking for the voltage that is being putout?
Don't need voltage reading. Have that elsewhere. Want to know amp hours charged. Although if it also shows voltage that's ok. :)
Your 2nd link is very close. I saw that one and other similar ones. Problem is it shows watt hours. Now that would work of course, using the math, but would prefer amp hours readout.
Edit: oops, looks like it also has an external shunt. Would love to find a little 10a module that can be connected inline.
 
Last edited:
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
No ammeter comes without a shunt. Small ones below generally 25a have internal shunts built inside the meter. It's the way ammeters work.
Ammeters & Shunts 101: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6032.0.html

How hard could it be to count? That's why battery monitors work and cost as much as they do! :) There is circuitry designed that is required to calculate the total amps, beyond just measuring the instantaneous amperage.
I know how they work.
I'll rephrase: No -external- shunt.
I found several that don't cost that much, even with their "calculating circuitry". Problem is they are in Australia or the like, or show watt hours like in previous post.

It's quite simple. Would like a 10a ammeter that also counts amp hours. Available in the US. Don't need a $150 to $500 "battery monitor".
Any ideas?
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Might check amazon.com search on "amp hour meter" or related terms...
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,423
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Don't need voltage reading. Have that elsewhere. Want to know amp hours charged. Although if it also shows voltage that's ok. :)
Your 2nd link is very close. I saw that one and other similar ones. Problem is it shows watt hours. Now that would work of course, using the math, but would prefer amp hours readout.
Edit: oops, looks like it also has an external shunt. Would love to find a little 10a module that can be connected inline.
I think you are searching for the holy grail here. The lowest cost ammeter that I could find a few years ago was the Victron Battery Monitor, it does count amp hours in and out, but it does require a shunt and it costs more than $150. Victron BMV-700 Single Bank Battery Monitor | Compass Marine

While you are checking out this product, it would be beneficial to read some of the articles that Maine Sail has posted on his site.
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
I think you are searching for the holy grail here. The lowest cost ammeter that I could find a few years ago was the Victron Battery Monitor, it does count amp hours in and out, but it does require a shunt and it costs more than $150. Victron BMV-700 Single Bank Battery Monitor | Compass Marine

While you are checking out this product, it would be beneficial to read some of the articles that Maine Sail has posted on his site.
Yup. Figured I might be.

I found one lady who might have one.
But she turned me into a newt.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,776
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
It's quite simple. Would like a 10a ammeter that also counts amp hours. Available in the US. Don't need a $150 to $500 "battery monitor".
Any ideas?
The Holy Grail comment was priceless. :):):)

Look, OP, if no one makes what you want after looking as well as you have and with the assistance of folks here, either we as a community have failed to find one for you (yet), or they just don't :make what you're looking for (as reasonable a request as it may be) based on your specs.

Your concept is to "marry" two things: instantaneous and cumulative. The first is easy, the second requires more.

Otherwise, get over the watt hour thing. You're right: make a conversion chart! :):):)

Good luck, I'll be intrested in what you end up with. Please do let us know.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,672
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I can't find an amp hour meter in the US.
At least not one under $150.
I find a million ammeters for $10, none that count the amp hours. How hard could it be?
It's for solar charging. I only need a 10a meter, no shunt. But it has to count the amp hours. Will be connected to Charge side only.

Any ideas? I spent an hour looking.
All searches came up with the same junk over and over.

Can you tell us what you're trying to achieve? Are you actually trying to figure out how full the battery is or just what your PV has contributed to the bus?


Don't need voltage reading. Have that elsewhere. Want to know amp hours charged. Although if it also shows voltage that's ok. :)
Unless you have an actual programmable Ah counter there is no way to tell from just an Ah counting meter, on the PV input, what the battery has taken in & stored. This is due to many factors such as loads on the battery, Coulombic efficiency etc...

For example if your PV is producing 2A, but there is a 1A load on the battery, only 1A will flow into the battery. Your Ah counter will show that as +2Ah but that is not what was put into the battery and is at least 50% off..

To further complicate, if you are at say 95% SOC with a +5A PV current and a 1A load yet the charge efficiency is only 50% due to the high SOC your counter will show +5Ah yet only about +2Ah have actually been stored in the battery.

All the hows and why's are discussed here:

Making Your Ah Counter More Accurate



.
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
Can you tell us what you're trying to achieve? Are you actually trying to figure out how full the battery is or just what your PV has contributed to the bus?




Unless you have an actual programmable Ah counter there is no way to tell from just an Ah counting meter, on the PV input, what the battery has taken in & stored. This is due to many factors such as loads on the battery, Coulombic efficiency etc...

For example if your PV is producing 2A, but there is a 1A load on the battery, only 1A will flow into the battery. Your Ah counter will show that as +2Ah but that is not what was put into the battery and is at least 50% off..

To further complicate, if you are at say 95% SOC with a +5A PV current and a 1A load yet the charge efficiency is only 50% due to the high SOC your counter will show +5Ah yet only about +2Ah have actually been stored in the battery.

All the hows and why's are discussed here:

Making Your Ah Counter More Accurate



.
I apparently may be over simplifying, which might not turn out to be useful logic.
I figured if the 100w panel via MPPT is delivering 7 amps mid day, I'm getting 7 amp hours in an hour at that time, then in the late afternoon if the controller (Genesun) is delivering 2 amps, I'm getting 2 amp hours etc. I'd like to know total amp hours delivered at the end of the day, regardless of amp hours drawn for use during the day. I can't accurately say how many amps delivered in a day based on only momentary ammeter readings.

While cruising, at anchor, the solar setup I have has been able to recharge to a controller-indicated full state by about 2pm during the summer in So Cal. This while running portable compressor-fridge and some phone and tablet charging, and pretty much nothing else during the day. Night- add to the above: LED interior lights and incandescent 10w anchor.
Plus momentary dom water pump etc.

I've made a calculation on 24-hour amp hour usage based on the estimated time, volts and device/bulb rated watts used. Therefore, based on the time of day when the controller says full, I can estimate/confirm amp hours used and charged over 24 hours, especially if a meter indicates how many amp hours were delivered to cause the controller to indicate full.
:)
--the meter would be on the solar side only, and unaware of amp hours consumed by the boat.--

A long winded way to say, "oh look the meter says the solar delivered 25 amp hours since 2:00pm yesterday. Now the controller says full. I must have used 25 amp hours since 2:00pm yesterday. And my solar system is working well".
Or:
"The solar delivered 25 amps hours, but still not full. I need to cut down on power usage."
Etc.
 
Last edited:
Feb 6, 1998
11,672
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I apparently may be over simplifying, which might not turn out to be useful logic.
That is what you are doing..

I figured if the 100w panel via MPPT is delivering 7 amps mid day, I'm getting 7 amp hours in an hour at that time, then in the late afternoon if the controller (Genesun) is delivering 2 amps, I'm getting 2 amp hours etc. I'd like to know total amp hours delivered at the end of the day, regardless of amp hours drawn for use during the day. I can't accurately say how many amps delivered in a day based on only momentary ammeter readings.
Delivered vs. actually stored is the real key. Delivered tells you next to nothing and can actually be very misleading and this is why Ah counters are not inexpensive and need a shunt at the battery...



While cruising, at anchor, the solar setup I have has been able to recharge to a controller-indicated full state by about 2pm during the summer in So Cal.
Absorption or Float and full are not one in the same. Just because the light is constant green this only means you're either in absorption or float mode. Absorption or dropped to float does in no way mean your bank is full. With the Genasun controllers it means you've;

#1 Increased bank voltage to the CV (constant voltage) limit (absorption)
#2 At the CV transition a 2.5 hour time-clock starts for absorption
#3 2.5 Hours at absorption voltage has expired and now the controller has dropped to float.

A single solid green light indicates either absorption or float.

Even the most efficient AGM batteries require more than 2.5 hours of absorption before attaining the 100% SOC mark. Genasun is better than most but most controller makers err on the side of caution when using "voltage regulation". Your batteries are really not full until you have attained absorption voltage and less than 1% of Ah capacity in accepted current flowing into the battery. The Genasun gets you close to full before dropping to float but not all the way. Some folks use 2% @ absorption voltage as an indicator of 100% SOC for cruising but this leads to PSOC capacity walk down.

I've made a calculation on 24-hour amp hour usage based on the estimated time, volts and device/bulb rated watts used. Therefore, based on the time of day when the controller says full, I can estimate/confirm amp hours used and charged over 24 hours, especially if a meter indicates how many amp hours were delivered to cause the controller to indicate full.
:)
--the meter would be on the solar side only, and unaware of amp hours consumed by the boat.--
I know the previous article is complex but take a good read of it....

Full is easy - ABSORPTION VOLTAGE and LESS THAN 1% in TAIL CURRENT flowing into the battery with a source fully capable of well exceeding the minimum. (for actual full 0.5% in acceptance is much better to use)

A long winded way to say, "oh look the meter says the solar delivered 25 amp hours since 2:00pm yesterday. Now the controller says full. I must have used 25 amp hours since 2:00pm yesterday. And my solar system is working well".
Or:
"The solar delivered 25 amps hours, but still not full. I need to cut down on power usage."
Etc.
Again your controller does not tell you "full" it tells you when it attained the absorption voltage or when has dropped to float or from the CC to CV transition + 2.5 Hours. One solid green light for both absorption & float. Most makers of CC/CV charge equipment finish charging the batteries during float because predicting time to full by voltage only is very difficult.. The problem is once we drop to float, the accepted current into the battery also drops, and this means well in excess of 24+ hours to really get your batteries back to 100% SOC...

Also, while you may deliver 25 Ah's to your bank but at high SOC this energy is not actually stored in the battery due to Coulombic efficiency..

This is why Ah counters cost so much. Even then they are very difficult for the average user to keep accurately programmed because a battery is an ever moving target and charge efficiency, Peukert, battery temp, and actual Ah capacity are every changing...
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,776
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
A long winded way to say, "oh look the meter says the solar delivered 25 amp hours since 2:00pm yesterday. Now the controller says full. I must have used 25 amp hours since 2:00pm yesterday. And my solar system is working well".
Or:
"The solar delivered 25 amps hours, but still not full. I need to cut down on power usage."
That appears to be an unusual way to deal with the issue. What you are really trying to do is find out if your batteries are full or not. While I agree that it is usually easier to find out what is being consumed than what is being taken out in terms of amp hours, because of battery acceptance it is harder to determine what has actually gone INTO the bank 'cuz of what Maine Sail said.

See these topics:
Battery Acceptance by Stu http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4787.0.html
and
Why Going Into FLOAT is NOT Full
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8216.0.html

Your goal should be "What is the charge status of my battery bank?" rather than "What has been the amount of amp hours produced by a single charging source?"

These are two different things, and different in a major way because of battery chemistry.

You could know the solar output and still not know how much the battery really accepted. The draw is often linear (amps times hours - except for large loads or very small ones because of the Peukert factor), while the recharging is not.

Most of us have opted for battery monitors, which do the cumulative work for us. If we want to find out what output of a charge source is we turn off the loads, because the montiors measure net current. Most monitors also measure in watt hours internally and then convert to amp hours for the display anyway.

Good luck, first I've heard of this "technique" of yours.
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
That is what you are doing..



Delivered vs. actually stored is the real key. Delivered tells you next to nothing and can actually be very misleading and this is why Ah counters are not inexpensive and need a shunt at the battery...





Absorption or Float and full are not one in the same. Just because the light is constant green this only means you're either in absorption or float mode. Absorption or dropped to float does in no way mean your bank is full. With the Genasun controllers it means you've;

#1 Increased bank voltage to the CV (constant voltage) limit (absorption)
#2 At the CV transition a 2.5 hour time-clock starts for absorption
#3 2.5 Hours at absorption voltage has expired and now the controller has dropped to float.

A single solid green light indicates either absorption or float.

Even the most efficient AGM batteries require more than 2.5 hours of absorption before attaining the 100% SOC mark. Genasun is better than most but most controller makers err on the side of caution when using "voltage regulation". Your batteries are really not full until you have attained absorption voltage and less than 1% of Ah capacity in accepted current flowing into the battery. The Genasun gets you close to full before dropping to float but not all the way. Some folks use 2% @ absorption voltage as an indicator of 100% SOC for cruising but this leads to PSOC capacity walk down.



I know the previous article is complex but take a good read of it....

Full is easy - ABSORPTION VOLTAGE and LESS THAN 1% in TAIL CURRENT flowing into the battery with a source fully capable of well exceeding the minimum. (for actual full 0.5% in acceptance is much better to use)



Again your controller does not tell you "full" it tells you when it attained the absorption voltage or when has dropped to float or from the CC to CV transition + 2.5 Hours. One solid green light for both absorption & float. Most makers of CC/CV charge equipment finish charging the batteries during float because predicting time to full by voltage only is very difficult.. The problem is once we drop to float, the accepted current into the battery also drops, and this means well in excess of 24+ hours to really get your batteries back to 100% SOC...

Also, while you may deliver 25 Ah's to your bank but at high SOC this energy is not actually stored in the battery due to Coulombic efficiency..

This is why Ah counters cost so much. Even then they are very difficult for the average user to keep accurately programmed because a battery is an ever moving target and charge efficiency, Peukert, battery temp, and actual Ah capacity are every changing...
Thank you sir.
I did read the article. Very informative as were your responses here. As usual :)

I guess when cruising, the battery never get to a full SOC, since it's always being drawn upon. Unless I charge one batt while using the other (I'd have to rewire the controller output), and leave it on solar well after the controller indicates full as you suggest.

I'd still like to have a little 10a internal-shunt amp-hour meter on the solar. :) it could be used for base calculations.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
..."The solar delivered 25 amps hours, but still not full. I need to cut down on power usage." Etc.
Unless you spend more money for a Victron or such, your charge and battery capacity is what it is. If that's the case, maybe you should ALWAYS practice electricity usage and not sweat it.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,776
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I'd still like to have a little 10a internal-shunt amp-hour meter on the solar. :) it could be used for base calculations.
Then buy the $18.20meter John linked to and install it between the controller and the bank. You simply won't find one with an internal shunt.
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
That appears to be an unusual way to deal with the issue. What you are really trying to do is find out if your batteries are full or not. While I agree that it is usually easier to find out what is being consumed than what is being taken out in terms of amp hours, because of battery acceptance it is harder to determine what has actually gone INTO the bank 'cuz of what Maine Sail said.

See these topics:
Battery Acceptance by Stu http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4787.0.html
and
Why Going Into FLOAT is NOT Full
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8216.0.html

Your goal should be "What is the charge status of my battery bank?" rather than "What has been the amount of amp hours produced by a single charging source?"

These are two different things, and different in a major way because of battery chemistry.

You could know the solar output and still not know how much the battery really accepted. The draw is often linear (amps times hours - except for large loads or very small ones because of the Peukert factor), while the recharging is not.

Most of us have opted for battery monitors, which do the cumulative work for us. If we want to find out what output of a charge source is we turn off the loads, because the montiors measure net current. Most monitors also measure in watt hours internally and then convert to amp hours for the display anyway.

Good luck, first I've heard of this "technique" of yours.
While not adhering to strict guidelines of the intricate details of battery charging, it is a basically valid concept to estimate short-term power usage and the solar system's ability to recharge. Especially for short cruising periods away from shorepower charging. It's better than being totally in the dark (humor :)) and without paying large sums and need permanent and a little complex installation.

Anyway I probably don't need a meter for my case. Others will; i.e. long distance/time cruisers. A real in/out monitor.
It would have just been interesting to have an input meter, including for base estimates. IE using the consistent data for modified calculations.
 
Oct 9, 2008
1,739
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
your charge and battery capacity is what it is. If that's the case, maybe you should ALWAYS practice electricity usage and not sweat it.
But that removes the gadget geekery.
I'm not sure I'm ready for that. :p

Although there may be overcast etc days when I'd like to know approx how much I put back in. Might need to cut back usage. Or if there is a daily abundance of power then I can use the tablet more to play Angry Birds, or use the boat's AM/FM instead of portable, or turn the fridge down for colder root beer, etc.
:)
The reality is that I can do these estimates using battery measurement tools already in place. IE voltage at rest, controller indicator, known appliance draw, etc. it's just neater to have another baseline.
Other, long duration cruisers will need a real monitor.