AC Day2 - TeamUSA has a Problem

Apr 26, 2015
660
S2 26 Mid On Trailer
I find these discussions of new technology vs old school on this forum and other forums and even in the news very entertaining. It would be interesting to know the type of sailing the various people on both sides of the discussion have done and see if there is any correlation to how they feel about things vs what they have done in their sailing past.

I started in dinghy's 50 years ago, raced catamarans (Hobies to Tornados) in the '70s early '80s, bought a beat up Sydney Harbor 18' skiff (from the organization that just lost the AC) in the mid 80s, was the US distributor to the forerunner of the Olympic 49er in the late '80s early 90s. During this same time I've owned and raced several monohulls from 20' to 34'. Now I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, I'm just trying to point out maybe the reason I embrace the high tech boats in the AC.

I'm just waiting on the trickle down. Did someone put an asymmetrical spinnaker on a cruising boat first? One day someone may come up with something that I glue to the bottom of my 40 year old O'Day to make it point better or reduce hull drag. Do I need it at almost 64 (July 4th) and my 2-3 hour cruises around the lake a couple of times a week, NO, but it would sure be fun to read about and discuss with you folks. Now should I spring for that retractable bowsprit and asymmetrical?
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
I've never understood the AC discussion about high tech vs old school, in relation to the AC.

The reason I rarely could give two hoots about the AC is that it's more about the tech, and how deep your pockets are. IMO the AC has been "meh" since the whole 12 metre vs cat BS years ago.

Add to that, the fact that you can have a team from "The Republic of Elbonia", actually be mostly sailors from New Zealand, and it gets worse.

Even the whole "I have the cup so I can make the rules" idea is crap IMO.

I think the race should be done with identical boats with sailors from the country the team is "from".

Maybe lightweight schooners with large crews :)
 

Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
I think the race should be done with identical boats with sailors from the country the team is "from".

Maybe lightweight schooners with large crews
That is pretty much the Antigua Classic Yacht Regatta. Dollars to Donuts you couldn't name a single boat or team in the 2017 race without Mr. Google. And that is pretty much the state of sailboat racing, how to get people to relate to the effort required to make a +100' foot classic monohull go fast. Give 'em a 50 MPH foiling cat and crew of world class athletes, the attraction is self evident. Which is pretty much the strategy Ellison brought to bear with the AC, he made the boats, the technology, the course something that you couldn't ignore once you had seen it. Disruptive Technology. Pretty much what he did with Oracle corporation.
 
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May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
i am fascinated by all sorts of toys and gadgets, even ones that only the rich can afford. i loved watching conners helm the boats he drove ( very light touch and almost no movement of the wheel while looking for wind and opportunities). look at Ted's hands on the wheel in the photo jackdaw posted, very telling. i'm fascinated by the AC boats of today. very cool. i see no downside to all these wonderful toys. very exciting.

just my $0.02
 
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Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
And that is pretty much the state of sailboat racing, how to get people to relate to the effort required to make a +100' foot classic monohull go fast.
The AC has very rarely been a "thing", for the average public, in 166 years.
There have been rare years when it was a bigger deal, but those are acceptations.
I can't name one person, I know outside of the sailing community, (and I deal with a lot of people), who ever knew the AC was even being held. A few did ask me about it, when the heard about the final result, simply because they knew I love sailing.

Trying to get the average person, in any numbers, care about the AC, is like getting people in tropical places to care about hockey.
Even if you make the hockey puck glow on the TV, and try educate new viewers about penalities etc... it hasn't worked.
Many southern hockey teams survive because of fans who grew up in snow country.

For the same reason, I can't see non sailors, in serious numbers, caring about the AC.
It's like trying to get large numbers of Canadians to give a crap about soccer/football.

Back to the point of my previous post....

Again, I don't see the concern about if it's old or new tech... who cares ?
In spite of the fact I'm a fan of the older boats, I have no issue with the modern foilers.
Whatever floats your boat hehe.

What I do have an issue with, is the fact they don't sail the exact same boats.
It should be purely a test of sailing skill, not who has more money to hire better engineers.

Not to mention, it truly is BS, in any sport, when you can compete under a flag, and not be from that country.

Heck, even the idea of the having the current Cup holder making rule changes, reminds me of jerrymandering.

That said, if Dalton tightens up the nationality rule, it would be a good thing IMO.
 
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Aug 13, 2012
533
Catalina 270 Ottawa
Heck, even the idea of the having the current Cup holder making rule changes, reminds me of jerrymandering.
If you don't like this rule, you don't like the AC (because this is THE rule). And the race is not between country (National) teams, but between boats (syndicates). They might have a country name in the title, but as far as I know it is secondary.

This challenge is not running for 160+ years, because it is unpopular or poorly conceived.

The whole point in having boats designed to a rule (but not identical) is to push the envelope on the design. This is what encourages progress.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
What I do have an issue with, is the fact they don't sail the exact same boats.
It should be purely a test of sailing skill, not who has more money to hire better engineers.
This has never ever been what America's Cup is really about.

Its ALWAYS been about who has the fastest boat. Only once in the entire history of the Cup has a consensus-faster boat lost the Cup. 80ish years ago.
 
Oct 1, 2007
1,856
Boston Whaler Super Sport Pt. Judith
This has never ever been what America's Cup is really about.

Its ALWAYS been about who has the fastest boat. Only once in the entire history of the Cup has a consensus-faster boat lost the Cup. 80ish years ago.
Well, the fastest boat has always been important but the fastest boat might have been 0.1 kts faster than the other boat back in the 12's. So the fastest boat also had to be the best sailed boat to win. One bad strategic move in a race would totally obliviate a small speed advantage. In fact the only modern series where I recall an apparent speed advantage was in the 80's when the Aussies showed up with the winged keel. In most cases back then a speed advantage was very small, hard to measure, and could have been due to sails, trimming, boat handling, or just plain luck. It is hard to imagine the difficulty in sailing for the cup in RI Sound. Fairly light winds mostly, current, and land caused wind shifts. Sometimes 15-20, sometimes 5-8 kts. Most of the series featured wins by both boats. I can't emphasize how close the racing was and the excitement it generated.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Every “sport” has an element of technology or science involved, at least every one I can think of. A sport being some sort of human competition and technology or science being something that is involved in the sport, either prior to or during the event.

The America’s Cup is just one sport, then there is auto racing, the olympics, ball sports, etc. Try to think of some sport where there isn’t some sort of technology involved and it’s tough. Video for analyzing golf swings, medical instruments to measure pulse, nutritionists to analyze one’s calories, special trainers, psychologists?, etc. Heck, even sport shoes. Everybody is looking for that little edge …. even in “one design.” There is no realistic way to eliminate it.

Put me in the “like to watch the boats fly” camp. I like to make my boat perform well but not going the route of PHRF where one has to take all the gear off and sport mylar sails to be competitive (because, realistically, that is what is required). Competitive meaning having an equal chance.

With the AC boats, technology is just one component of the sport. Sailing the boat is where the proof is in the pudding. And there is always the element of luck.

If Dalton tightened up the nationality rule …. we’ll never see the cup come back!
Back in the real good ol’ days, it was who had the best Norwegians!
 
Aug 13, 2012
533
Catalina 270 Ottawa
if you like the technology, i suggest watching an interview with Stan Honey, who IS a sailor and who is one of the developers of the Liveline, the s/w behind showing the AC racing, e.g. here:
(around 3:30 mark). The stuff they are doing is amazing.
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,094
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
If Dalton tightened up the nationality rule …. we’ll never see the cup come back!
If a country can't field a competitive team they shouldn't get the cup.
I could care less who wins it, as long as the races are good.

Every “sport” has an element of technology or science involved, at least every one I can think of. A sport being some sort of human competition and technology or science being something that is involved in the sport, either prior to or during the event.
Yes. But that influence is usually more controlled.
F1 one has made changes to make things more competitive. Most other sports do the same, for the same reason.
Olympic sailors anyone ?

Hey if they want to race foilers that can do 100knts, I'm all for the engineering, and the trickle down tech, and the excitement.

Just make it so the tech plays less of a role, so the races are more closely matched, and exciting to watch.

Most of the series featured wins by both boats. I can't emphasize how close the racing was and the excitement it generated.
Amen to that. THAT is what I liked about the AC before.

If you don't like this rule, you don't like the AC (because this is THE rule). And the race is not between country (National) teams, but between boats (syndicates). They might have a country name in the title, but as far as I know it is secondary.

This challenge is not running for 160+ years, because it is unpopular or poorly conceived.
Sure it is ostensibly now one club against another, but it's about national one upmanship from day one.

"This Cup is donated upon the condition that it shall be preserved as a perpetual challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries"

The Deed of gift repeats the word "country" multiple times.

.... "WE'LL never see the cup come back"

You don't name boats "Star & Stripes", "AmericaOne", "Young America", "Team New Zealand", "oneaustralia" etc. for nothing.

I believe the main reason it's been around this long, has nothing to do with viewership
Rich boys would still do it no matter what.

The majority of the public could care less about it.
I'm a lifelong sailor, love the Olympics/Vendee/Around Alone/Ostar stuff, and yet, for the last few AC, I only watch some of it.

Yeah that is "the rule". I've always thought it was awful.
The intermittent court battles over the years make it even more goofy.

8 races to 1.... Ugh.
 
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