A start gone ALL WRONG

Oct 26, 2008
6,045
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Blue actually had room, but not time. Had they stayed up they would have crossed cleanly, but have been OCS. That's why I suggested big ease of both sails earlier to burn time when they had the opportunity to do so.
That's what I thought as well.
 

MitchM

.
Jan 20, 2005
1,011
Nauticat 321 pilothouse 32 Erie PA
makes me so glad of having a boat too slow to race ! of course my boat doesn't respond well to screams of bow up very fast either , maybe it needs more training...
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Ok, just to be clear for my own purposes. If Blue had been close hauled (does this really matter for this question?) and on time with a hole to shoot for below the boat, what right would she have to that hole? Would she need to be so close to the line or boat as to be unable to turn up without hitting the boat before she could claim they gave her no room? I think Camelot could turn up as far as head to wind on the line within her rights and that Blue would have to plan to give that much room when planning their approach but I am not clear when Camelot would have to give room to avoid Blue crashing into the boat. Does overlap matter here?
Thanks Everybody.
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
If Blue had been close hauled (does this really matter for this question?)
From a rules standpoint it doesn't really matter whether they are close hauled. At the start the same rules apply to boats regardless of how close they are to the wind. The only way it matters is that if you're coming in to a start and you're not close hauled, it's a pretty good indication that you're barging and extra vulnerable to being blocked out.
Would she need to be so close to the line or boat as to be unable to turn up without hitting the boat before she could claim they gave her no room?
Pretty much. A leeward boat can't change her course in such a way that Windward would need to hit the RC to avoid hitting Leeward. If Leeward comes in on a steady course approaching the RC, then Windward can't try to fit in there without breaking rule 11 (windward/leeward). But if Leeward changes course after they're overlapped with the RC, leaving less than a boat width in between, then they're not giving Windward "room to keep clear", so they are breaking rule 16.1. Note that the "room to keep clear" only provides room to avoid the mark / RC; it does not provide Windward with room to stay below the starting line. The Leeward boat can certainly come up and force Windward over the start line, just not into the RC.

Really good explanation of this situation in US Sailing Appeal #117, linked from the bottom of the page at https://www.ussailing.org/competition/rules-officiating/appeals/.
 
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Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
Great discussion thanks for posting @Jackdaw I have attempted the Vanderbilt on a few occasions but my timing and or line position keeps us out of the fray. I am learning but love the challenge.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I'm late to this and not sure I've read all the posts. But, the J122 seems to be to have been closed out - a risk of the Vanderbilt Start. The last time it happened to me I peeled off, asking for room from the leeward boat so I could fall off. I circled around and came up to leeward of the other boat and had a better start. I won the 1 minute after start contest. In this case I completely agree with Jackdaw that a hired gun tactician pushed a crew - or at least helms person, too far. A tactician is supposed to be the one with the head out of the boat. They shouldn't be the crew boss. But mostly it isn't that way. The injuries are not what any of us want.
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,727
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
Just out of curiosity, does the start boat ( or whatever you call it) have any requirement to get out of the way in a case where they are about to get rammed?

I thought it looked like they moved out of the way before Blue and Camelot got into it.

Greg
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Just out of curiosity, does the start boat ( or whatever you call it) have any requirement to get out of the way in a case where they are about to get rammed?

I thought it looked like they moved out of the way before Blue and Camelot got into it.

Greg
Starting line boats are typically anchored in place, and are held by the push of the breeze. They do move slightly as the breeze shifts.

So NO they do not move to avoid contact, that is the sailboat’s responsibility. Often RC boats will float a small mark off the transom, attached to the boat via a short line. This mark becomes part of the RC boat, and reduces the likelihood of contact. If done, this must be mentioned in the SIs.

A good idea if your club uses sailboats or other boats with exposed rudders on their transoms.
 
Jan 13, 2009
391
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
Our club has the hit the committee boat hing figured out. The have a couple of Inland Seas Steel Clippers for committee boats. These boats have this nice little 2" diameter round bar around the back quarter of the boat. My friend on his 29 footer came in late and hit one. No damage to the com boat, about $1500 in fiber
escort1.jpg
glass work to his boat.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,040
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
We used to have our start in a location where the "Boat side" was a jetty. That cut down on barging a bit - but it didn't stop it. Shallow draft boats would still try to squeeze in. There was one guy who would scream (Hail would be too mild) for room based on an obstruction. Nobody really wanted to put him on the rocks so he always got away with it. As OPB crew I would just cringe and cover my face.
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
So after all this discussion about rights and room at the boat end, I was outbarged in light winds this Wednesday night. I crept down a little early from upwind and was making a nice turn around the boat leaving me room to go under two boats approaching close hauled if I had to and all of a sudden I had a boat approaching above me with the intent of going between me and the boat. It is my understanding that I could have closed the door since there was no overlap yet but I was still concerned about being pushed over the line early if either of the approaching boats turned up so I held my line and as we passed the stern of the boat he slipped in there with only a couple of feet between us and between him and the boat.
In hindsight, I would have been better served to have closed the gap earlier because there was room at the start but I am mostly happy to have stuck to my plan leaving options open and we did pass them within 5 boat lengths or so anyway.
I know this didn't add much to the discussion but I thought it was interesting to see the almost immediate application of the rules and similar scenario albeit with better results and no broken bones.
Dan
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
So after all this discussion about rights and room at the boat end, I was outbarged in light winds this Wednesday night. I crept down a little early from upwind and was making a nice turn around the boat leaving me room to go under two boats approaching close hauled if I had to and all of a sudden I had a boat approaching above me with the intent of going between me and the boat. It is my understanding that I could have closed the door since there was no overlap yet but I was still concerned about being pushed over the line early if either of the approaching boats turned up so I held my line and as we passed the stern of the boat he slipped in there with only a couple of feet between us and between him and the boat.
In hindsight, I would have been better served to have closed the gap earlier because there was room at the start but I am mostly happy to have stuck to my plan leaving options open and we did pass them within 5 boat lengths or so anyway.
I know this didn't add much to the discussion but I thought it was interesting to see the almost immediate application of the rules and similar scenario albeit with better results and no broken bones.
Dan
'Outbarged'! Now that's a new one for me!

In the case you describe, overlap does NOT apply. Earlier in the story you are clear ahead and (RSS12) the clear astern boat must KEEP CLEAR. Once they overlap, (RRS11) says windward boat must KEEP CLEAR. And as there is no proper course before the start (By RRS definition), you can luff them all the way up to head to wind. So they most keep clear the entire time.
 

Apex

.
Jun 19, 2013
1,197
C&C 30 Elk Rapids
i would suggest some good communication to the outbarger to discourage.
"dont go in there, no room" should suffice
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
'Outbarged'! Now that's a new one for me!

In the case you describe, overlap does NOT apply. Earlier in the story you are clear ahead and (RSS12) the clear astern boat must KEEP CLEAR. Once they overlap, (RRS11) says windward boat must KEEP CLEAR. And as there is no proper course before the start (By RRS definition), you can luff them all the way up to head to wind. So they most keep clear the entire time.
Thanks for the clarification Clay, but by the time they got overlap they were literally in an opening 4' wider than their boat with no ability to avoid the committee boat if I had turned up at all. they would have hit one or both boats had I squeezed so I needed to give them room to be there.
I would not have, but could I have protested them as the leeward boat for not giving me room to turn up?
Dan
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
I would not have, but could I have protested them as the leeward boat for not giving me room to turn up?
Only if you tried to turn up before they were jammed between you and the RC. You need to give them room to keep clear, which means they are entitled to room to avoid the RC once they're between you and it. If you tried to come up before that time and they prevented you, then yes you can protest.