Hi all, I am new to this forum and have spent the last two days reading about the Cherubini hunters. I am glad I have one. I have a '78 30' I have owned for two years. I have a leak that comes from the stern only when I am on a starboard tack heeled over between 15&20 degrees.The water runs down the port side from the stern. It will actually bypass the drain area to the bilge and fill up the engine bilge area, and run out onto the cabin sole. i am thinking rudder post, or the cockpit drain. I am going to pull the quater berth aft bulkhead out to see if I can pinpoint the leak. Any Ideas why it only does it while heeling over to the port side?
78 h30 leak from stern.
- Thread starter Steve C.
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I have a 1979 30 and I doubt it is the cockpit drain. Both drains run to a single outlet on the stern and I doubt that even at the greatest heel would enough pressure develop to leak unless it is a hole in the hose. That you could diagnos by pouring lots of water down the scuppers and checking for water running that way. I would guess a rudder post leak or a packing gland shaft leak. If you manage to get the bulkhead out, let me know how you did it, I have loosened the screws and can get it to pivot some, but not come all the way out.
What through hulls do you have on the port side above the water line? I'd start by inspecting all the hoses attached to them on that side. If one has a crack it will definitely let water in. Also check to make sure that the through hulls themselves are in good shape and tight. I had a cracked plastic through hull for a deck drain that would let a little water in if heeled too far over. If the bilge pump exits out the port side make sure you have a loop above the heeled water line to keep water out. A cockpit drain hose may be cracked, take a good look at them. Don't forget to check any transom through hulls.
Manny
Manny
I agree with Manny,take a look at your above water thru hulls, I was doing a pre-season inspection this past spring, slighly tugged on a starboard deck drain thru hull and
the inside hull portion of the thru-hull broke off with no effort. Scary,heads-up.
Also,any sign of water penetration at your rub rail connection?
joe
s/v trinity
the inside hull portion of the thru-hull broke off with no effort. Scary,heads-up.
Also,any sign of water penetration at your rub rail connection?
joe
s/v trinity
engine bilge
My rudder post leaks and the prop shaft drips from the stern. Also, the engine bilge will fill with water if the space underneath it is not cleared. Over the years dirt plugs up the little clearance there is between the engine bilge and the bottom of the boat. There seems to be no clearance in the middle but on the sides you may slide a small rod or long flat piece of steel though to clear the dirt. When this is done your engine bilge should remain dry with the water running to the main bilge. As long as the leak isn't more than what you think is normal clearing the passage way to the main bilge may be all that is needed.
My rudder post leaks and the prop shaft drips from the stern. Also, the engine bilge will fill with water if the space underneath it is not cleared. Over the years dirt plugs up the little clearance there is between the engine bilge and the bottom of the boat. There seems to be no clearance in the middle but on the sides you may slide a small rod or long flat piece of steel though to clear the dirt. When this is done your engine bilge should remain dry with the water running to the main bilge. As long as the leak isn't more than what you think is normal clearing the passage way to the main bilge may be all that is needed.
Thanks for the replies. I don't see any thru hulls in that area, except the cockpit drains and the rudder shaft. I have tried running water down the drains at the dock but without the boat heeled over no water leaks. The shaft has a drip less and no water there. The reason it goes into the engine bilge, when the boat is heeled over the water on the port side misses the area under the under the engine bilge and runs on the edge into the engine bilge. I have spent some time looking through the cover into the engine area from qberth. If I can get the bulkhead out maybe I can see where it is comming from...
I like the "J Page" idea of first pouring lots of water into the scuppers. Someone wrote that there is one scupper exit out the stern. Is that thru-hull to port of the centerline? That could do it. I had a crack in one of those old scupper hoses on my '79 H37C.
It is hard to see how the rudder stuffing could be the problem. Wouldn't it also occur on a port tack? On my boat it does not take too much crew back there to put it below the waterline. Then you would see water come in if it is the rudder packing.
Where does your exhaust exit? On an H37C it is just at the waterline, port side.
It is hard to see how the rudder stuffing could be the problem. Wouldn't it also occur on a port tack? On my boat it does not take too much crew back there to put it below the waterline. Then you would see water come in if it is the rudder packing.
Where does your exhaust exit? On an H37C it is just at the waterline, port side.
I also had a leaking through hull from the one on the waterline that comes from the sink at the head (port mid-ship) This damm thing has a slow leak that ran into the bilge. Luck would have it that I was aboard when it cut loose at 0200 hrs on a Sunday morning. I woke up to the bilge pump running like mad.
Also here is a jpeg of the stern set-up
Ian
s/v Meant to Be
Also here is a jpeg of the stern set-up
Ian
s/v Meant to Be
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I removed the bulkhead in the qberth, there is a screw from the engine panel in the cockpit as well as the screws at the base, and the bulkhead came out. There is some moisture as well as a rust stain on the port side of the fiberglass volcano that the rudder post comes up through. There is a rubber hose with clamps that is covering the top of the volcano. How does the rudder shaft seal in the tube?
Water leak in 78 Cherubini 30
Yes, the rubber sleeve you see clamped to the rudder post at the top of the conical-shaped fiberglass support is part of the system that provides bearing for the rudder post and prevents leaks. It has a stuffing box just like the one on the prop shaft and it's the Devil's own job to insinuate another piece of stuffing into the unit. I approached it from the lazarette on the starboard side. It's possible to reach it from the quarter berth also. The bulkhead is just a piece of 3/4" plywood held in there mostly by habit. Some of the threaded ends of bolts sticking down through the deck above make it difficult to remove the thing. Try pulling the outboard top side towards you followed by the top of the inboard side. There may be some resistance, especially because of the aforementioned bolts sticking down. You will find that brute force is the answer. After frequent removals and replacements, the top edge of the plywood develops convenient little grooves in it where the bolts wear away the wood enough to make removal easier in the future.
Installing the stuffing material, readily available at a marine supply outfit, has to be installed mostly by feel, while your ribs are being crushed by the plywood gusset at the foot of the quarter berth or the lazarette. I quess your choice of approach angles depends largely on whether you're left-handed or right-handed.
Yes, the rubber sleeve you see clamped to the rudder post at the top of the conical-shaped fiberglass support is part of the system that provides bearing for the rudder post and prevents leaks. It has a stuffing box just like the one on the prop shaft and it's the Devil's own job to insinuate another piece of stuffing into the unit. I approached it from the lazarette on the starboard side. It's possible to reach it from the quarter berth also. The bulkhead is just a piece of 3/4" plywood held in there mostly by habit. Some of the threaded ends of bolts sticking down through the deck above make it difficult to remove the thing. Try pulling the outboard top side towards you followed by the top of the inboard side. There may be some resistance, especially because of the aforementioned bolts sticking down. You will find that brute force is the answer. After frequent removals and replacements, the top edge of the plywood develops convenient little grooves in it where the bolts wear away the wood enough to make removal easier in the future.
Installing the stuffing material, readily available at a marine supply outfit, has to be installed mostly by feel, while your ribs are being crushed by the plywood gusset at the foot of the quarter berth or the lazarette. I quess your choice of approach angles depends largely on whether you're left-handed or right-handed.
The rubber piece rotates with the steering, is this correct? Do I lower the rubber piece to put in the stuffing?
'78 H30 Stern Leak
Steve, no the hose does not turn. Only the rudder stock(post) turns. It is, as mentioned earlier, exactly akin to the prop shaft turning in the stuffing box. There is a rudder stuffing box on top of that hose. Your problem is one of location, you can barely see it and that makes it hard to understand.
Here is a picture of mine. It is different from yours but maybe you can get the idea. I was working on mine when the picture was taken. That is why the clamps are askew. At the top is the radial wheel for the steering. Below that is the stuffing box. There are three bolts clamping the top to the part on the hose. The packing is in that gap between the two sections. By tightening those three bolts the packing is squeezed against the rudder stock. The bottom of the hose, the second picture, is double clamped to the hull stub.
I temporarily tightened it while underway in the Erie Canal. Finally, while in the yard recently, removed the radial wheel which made it a snap to repack. Hope this helps.
Steve, no the hose does not turn. Only the rudder stock(post) turns. It is, as mentioned earlier, exactly akin to the prop shaft turning in the stuffing box. There is a rudder stuffing box on top of that hose. Your problem is one of location, you can barely see it and that makes it hard to understand.
Here is a picture of mine. It is different from yours but maybe you can get the idea. I was working on mine when the picture was taken. That is why the clamps are askew. At the top is the radial wheel for the steering. Below that is the stuffing box. There are three bolts clamping the top to the part on the hose. The packing is in that gap between the two sections. By tightening those three bolts the packing is squeezed against the rudder stock. The bottom of the hose, the second picture, is double clamped to the hull stub.
I temporarily tightened it while underway in the Erie Canal. Finally, while in the yard recently, removed the radial wheel which made it a snap to repack. Hope this helps.
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Ed, mine is different than yours. There is a round coupler directly below the cable wheel connectors on the rudder. The rubber hose is clamped directly to the bottom of the coupler, it goes over the top of the conical fiberglass tube, and rotates with the coupler.I see no stuffing or anything that would seal the top of the rudder shaft. I have searched this website as well as the edson site and can find nothing like it. I plan to motor and sail tomorrow and see if I can spot the leak...
Re. '78 H30 rudder leak.
Even though I am envious of your going sailing I am still trying to understand. Your description reads like my photo, "There is a round coupler directly below the cable wheel connectors on the rudder. The rubber hose is clamped directly to the bottom of the coupler, it goes over the top of the conical fiberglass tube, and rotates with the coupler." Everything is right except the "rotates with the coupler" part.
I wonder if your rudder has dropped so that the radial wheel(quandrant) is hanging up against the stuffing box(what you call the coupler). So it has broken the hose loose at the bottom, the part that should be firmly clamped to the hull stub. Now the whole works is turning which would definitely cause a leak. On my boat only the lower part of the hose is even close to the waterline.
One of the problems with finding this information here is the missing photos. I find lots of archive information with "Search". And the text references photos but they are not there. Anyway let us know what you find. Photos of the area would be helpful.
Even though I am envious of your going sailing I am still trying to understand. Your description reads like my photo, "There is a round coupler directly below the cable wheel connectors on the rudder. The rubber hose is clamped directly to the bottom of the coupler, it goes over the top of the conical fiberglass tube, and rotates with the coupler." Everything is right except the "rotates with the coupler" part.
I wonder if your rudder has dropped so that the radial wheel(quandrant) is hanging up against the stuffing box(what you call the coupler). So it has broken the hose loose at the bottom, the part that should be firmly clamped to the hull stub. Now the whole works is turning which would definitely cause a leak. On my boat only the lower part of the hose is even close to the waterline.
One of the problems with finding this information here is the missing photos. I find lots of archive information with "Search". And the text references photos but they are not there. Anyway let us know what you find. Photos of the area would be helpful.
78 H30 leak from stern
Steve, The rubber hose clamps onto the top of the fiberglass conical support and onto the tube surrounding the shaft at the top of the hose. The shouldn't turn. It would be a total violation of Murphy's Law if you were to tighten up the lower hose clamp, and, what the heck, the upper one too, and all the leaks stopped. If that works, you live a charmed life.
If it doesn't work, those two flanges on the end of the tube surrounding the shaft are a sandwich device, as I recall, that squishes the teflon seal material against the shaft, just like a prop shaft stuffing box. You will have to loosen the bolts holding the flanges together and separate them enough to get the worn out sealing material out of a groove in the lower flange next to the shaft and replace it with new material. I don't remember the diameter of the material, nor the name of the stuff (what displeases the mind, it tends to forget), but it's just stuffing box material. I can't remember anything any more. West Marine, Boat US, everybody's got it.
Steve, The rubber hose clamps onto the top of the fiberglass conical support and onto the tube surrounding the shaft at the top of the hose. The shouldn't turn. It would be a total violation of Murphy's Law if you were to tighten up the lower hose clamp, and, what the heck, the upper one too, and all the leaks stopped. If that works, you live a charmed life.
If it doesn't work, those two flanges on the end of the tube surrounding the shaft are a sandwich device, as I recall, that squishes the teflon seal material against the shaft, just like a prop shaft stuffing box. You will have to loosen the bolts holding the flanges together and separate them enough to get the worn out sealing material out of a groove in the lower flange next to the shaft and replace it with new material. I don't remember the diameter of the material, nor the name of the stuff (what displeases the mind, it tends to forget), but it's just stuffing box material. I can't remember anything any more. West Marine, Boat US, everybody's got it.
I could see water leaking out of the bottom of the rubber hose. The hose rotates with the flange. I don't see any room for packing between the flanges.
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'78 H30 Stern Leak
Exactly as you first described and as I thought, the radial wheel(quadrant) is right down on top of the stuffing box. When you turn the wheel the quandrant turns and is stuck on top of the stuffing box. The top clamp must be tighter than the bottom clamp. So the hose IS turning as I suspected. And as I said and Ian reinforced it is NOT supposed to turn.
I will grant you that it does not look like a normal rudder stuffing box. Almost looks like the top half is missing. Doesn't matter. The only way to fix this is to get the rudder raised up and remove that radial wheel. That is the only way you will be able to see what is happening between the radial wheel and the stuffing box.
You might be able to do this in the water but it will be hard. More likely you will need it on the hard. Then you can put some wood and a jack to work to push the rudder up to its correct position. Then you need to find why it has dropped down. Or if it has not dropped then maybe the radial wheel has slipped down. In a nutshell the radial wheel probably should not be sitting on the stuffing box.
I say probably because maybe the bottom of the radial wheel completes the seal. That there is packing on top of the piece clamped to the hose and radial wheel presses on that. If that packing all wore away then you would have medal on medal. Corrosion may have locked then together which broke the seal at the bottom clamp. Either way you are still back to stopping the hose from turning.
Exactly as you first described and as I thought, the radial wheel(quadrant) is right down on top of the stuffing box. When you turn the wheel the quandrant turns and is stuck on top of the stuffing box. The top clamp must be tighter than the bottom clamp. So the hose IS turning as I suspected. And as I said and Ian reinforced it is NOT supposed to turn.
I will grant you that it does not look like a normal rudder stuffing box. Almost looks like the top half is missing. Doesn't matter. The only way to fix this is to get the rudder raised up and remove that radial wheel. That is the only way you will be able to see what is happening between the radial wheel and the stuffing box.
You might be able to do this in the water but it will be hard. More likely you will need it on the hard. Then you can put some wood and a jack to work to push the rudder up to its correct position. Then you need to find why it has dropped down. Or if it has not dropped then maybe the radial wheel has slipped down. In a nutshell the radial wheel probably should not be sitting on the stuffing box.
I say probably because maybe the bottom of the radial wheel completes the seal. That there is packing on top of the piece clamped to the hose and radial wheel presses on that. If that packing all wore away then you would have medal on medal. Corrosion may have locked then together which broke the seal at the bottom clamp. Either way you are still back to stopping the hose from turning.
Not to hijack this thread, but mine looks very similar to Steve's
The rudder doesn't hang low.
How do you tighten the stuffing box? Is it by tightening the small bolts on what appear to be flanges on the lower half?
Thanks,
Manny
Ed, so I should have a gap between the quadrant and the stuffing box? I can't see how there would be any room for a gap, maybe it's possible a PO replaced the hose at some point with one that was longer
The rudder doesn't hang low.How do you tighten the stuffing box? Is it by tightening the small bolts on what appear to be flanges on the lower half?
Thanks,
Manny
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Ed, I don't think my rudder has dropped. I see in Manny's pic a small gap between the flanges, where mine are touching. I will lower the hose, loosen the flange, replace the packing, and figure out why the hose rotates with the stuffing box.
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