34 Keel question

[Sefuller]

Several years ago I stripped our cast iron keel and applied seven coats of Interprotect, over which we apply VC-17 annually. For the last couple of years, when I haul out in the fall, there are a few areas of rust at the keel to stub joint. On our boat (not sure about 34s in general) this joint is not faired, but the sealant is visible, like a caulk joint. I applied the Interprotect right over this. Before launching, I have ground down these areas, applied new Interprotect and VC-17, but the next year, the rust is back in those couple of areas.

I am wondering if the chronic rusting is because the sealant has failed, and if I should consider dropping the keel and rebedding it? I have never checked the torque on the keel bolts either, but I am guessing if the sealant has failed that re-torquing is not going to solve the problem.

Has anyone with a 34 or 35 dropped their keel?

--
Scott

 

[py26129]

I do not know the ODay 34 specifically but owned a Paceship 26 for 12 years. The PY also has a cast iron keel and was kept in fresh water, like your ODay.
Like your boat, the keel to stub joint was not faired. I used Sikaflex 291 to fair the joint. The 291 will stay flexible but is sandable, to a degree. This was then over coated with anti fouling paint, This combination dud a great jog of keeping the rust at bay in that area.


I would not drop the keel unless you have seepage around the keel bolts. Dropping the keel sounds easy but it's actually quite amazing how much effort it takes ot get the old caulking / sealant to release.

Cheers

Matt

 

[njlarry]

Have you tried sounding and re-torqueing first? Is any water leaking into the boat? Might not be that bad. Condensation over time can run down the outside of the cooler keel.

 

[Sefuller]

What would I sound?? It's hard to say if there is any seepage - I need to take a vac and dry it out. I am working on getting the ice box not to drain into the bilge as it is always wet now.

 

[njlarry]

Hitting the bolt tops with a ball been hammer sound give a sharp solid ping equal to all.
You might want to use shop vac to dry the bilge, cork up the ice box drains, wait for rain free day and see it water enters. Likely it won,t.
Torque is 160 ft lbs.
Also might want a surveyor to look at it if questionable.

 

[rajhnsn]

My 35 has a lead keel. Didn't realize they made them in cast iron as well.

 

[SailingCal21]

Pretty sure that both the 34s and 35s have iron keels. In 2009 I ground down, filled and faired Karma's keel and keel joint with thickened epoxy. I inspect the joint each haul-out and have had no evidence of a separation between the keel and hull.

Is there any O'Day 34/35's with a dry bilge? I can't seem to keep it dry, with everything draining to the bilge.

 

[njlarry]

My 84 has a lead keel.
Right now the shower drains into the bilge along with the fridge, mast and deck leaks. Once sump is installed only deck leaks and mast will drain into it. My electrical panel does have a "sump pump" breaker but don't know where the wires go as there is no sump pump now.

 

[jibes138]

My 35 is a lead keel. I ground it to bare metal put two coats of west epoxy then a few coats of barrier coat then painted it. Haven't had peeling paint since then. It is 100% absolutely lead.

 

[Davidasailor26]

My 35 has a lead keel. Didn't realize they made them in cast iron as well.

My understanding is that O'Day changed from iron to lead keels sometime in the early 80s. I know this is true of the 28, and probably their other fixed keel models too.

 

[Sefuller]

Ours is cast iron - I'm 100% sure about that . I too have heard that they switched to lead but that was after our boat was built.

 

[Brian S]

Sefuller, I don't have a cast iron keel, nor is it bolted on. So, take my comments into consideration...

From what you described of the original epoxy coating of the keel, I think that since you didn't drop the keel, and completely encapsulate it in epoxy, you've got issues with the top of the keel having rust. Even resealing/fairing around the keel/fiberglass junction could eventually leak allowing water in and rust out, for what some people call the "Catalina Smile" because it's fairly common on some Catalinas.

I think some of the comments have pointed to a potential problem of loose keel bolts which might allow the keel movement, shortening the life of the sealant. But if there's already rust up in there, it will keep rusting and the scale will expand.

Sitting here in my desk chair and not having to deal with your boat, I would think the correct way to solve the problem is to drop the keel, clean it all up well, down to the bare iron, and then paint it with 2 coats of phosphoric acid (I got some at Ace Hardware under the brand name Phospho I think, in the paint section. Gonna use it on some trailer parts my friend welded on for me.) This will create a thin layer of iron phosphate, which is hard and inhibits further rust. It also converts some of the existing thin rust to iron phosphate. Then, you'd want to coat with 3 coats of coal tar epoxy, which is what the Coast Guard uses on steel buoys. (I've seen guys use Rustoleum branded CTE.) Once you've got this sold base on all the cast iron, then you could use a below waterline fiberglass fairing material, being careful not to burn through your CTE and iron phosphate. If you did burn through while sanding, you need to re-coat with phosphate and CTE, because if you have any fairing material directly up against the metal, water WILL get under it and cause new rust. Once faired, another couple coats of CTE, and then you're ready for reinstallation, proper keel bolt torquing, and fairing in the joint with sealant. Then your bottom paint.

This is just my opinion, based on a guy I know in Florida with a cast iron swing keel, who has been through this twice before. The first time he did this, he faired, then CTE. In areas where there was no fairing compound, 10 years later NO rust. But where he faired right on to the metal, water got under the fairing and rusted. So this time he did what was described above, to make sure it's encapsulated in iron phosphate and CTE first.

 

[Sefuller]

Resurrecting an old thread as this problem has not gone away on it's own Last winter I checked the torque on my keel bolts, and this summer closely monitored any water in the bilge. I have nothing that drains into the bilge, and the only time I had any water at all was after a rain and I was able to determine that water comes in through the mast during a hard rain. I am now confident there is no seepage at the keel/stub joint and the joint is not moving under sail. HOWEVER - this year it dawned on me that the discoloration evident at the keel/stub joint goes not only onto the keel, but also onto the fiberglass stub. When I inspected the entire bottom I found that there is similar discoloration around every metal through hull as well (albeit very slight). I also determined that the area on the keel that is discolored is right at the keel bolt where the bonding wire attaches - and the bonding wire is similarly attached to all of the metal through hulls where this issue is occurring. I think it is reasonable at this point to assume I have an electrical issue and I am wondering how best to begin the troubleshooting process, especially with the boat out of the water. A couple of points - we are in fresh water (always has been) and on a mooring so the likelihood of stray current from docks or another boat are extremely slim. The good news is my magnesium sacrificial anodes have been doing their job - the prop, shaft and strut don't show any signs of corrosion, and any electrolysis around the through hulls seems to be limited to the copper bottom paint.

 

[Sunbird22358]

When the O'DAY 34 was originally designed (circa 1979-80) C.R. Hunt Associates specified lead for the bolt-on fin-keel. When the boat actually went into production, the price of lead had increased and O'DAY switched to a cast-iron keel (how they kept total ballast the same without changing shape/size of keel is a good question, since lead is more dense than cast-iron). Later, after a couple of years in production (and certainly before the 34 became the 35) O'DAY phased in a return to the original spec Lead keel. So, early 34s have cast-iron keels, later ones (and the 35) have the lead keel.

 

[eherlihy]

My '87 (hull laid up in '86) has a lead keel. I believe that some of the keels were cast by I Broomfield & Sons in Providence.

When I first saw the boat there was evidence of water in the bilge. After I made an offer to buy the boat, at the first survey, I discovered that the keel was loose, and the deal was off. The PO dropped the keel and we all discovered that 4 of the seven keel bolts were corroded to the point that they were not doing anything. One of them, the foremost one, snapped off entirely. The yard sent the keel back to I Broomfiled & Sons, and they replaced the original 304 stainless J bolts with larger diameter 316 stainless bolts and shipped it back to the yard. The yard rebedded and reinstalled the keel, then wrapped the joint with fiberglass cloth and epoxy.

 

[Sefuller]

My keel bolts all look bright and clean inside, and I don't see any external evidence of the keel moving, nor do I get any water at all coming into the bilge through the keel bolts either when the boat is at rest or after sailing, even hard on the wind.

 

[njlarry]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I can only suggest finding a surveyor with expertise in corrosion and bonding. After much consideration I isolated all my thru holes. Good luck and let us know how you make out. How did you access the forward keel bolt?

 

[eherlihy]

How did you access the forward keel bolt?

With a breaker bar and a deep socket and a lot of patience. I put the socket on the nut, then tried to position the breaker bar so that it would engage with the nut and allow me to rotate the nut. If it didn't I would rotate the socket one point and try again.

Here is a pic of my bilge and a keel bolt before the keel was dropped (when there was a problem).

 

[eherlihy]

And here is a picture of the bilge and keel bolts today.

 

[rajhnsn]

Resurrecting an old thread as this problem has not gone away on it's own Last winter I checked the torque on my keel bolts, and this summer closely monitored any water in the bilge. I have nothing that drains into the bilge, and the only time I had any water at all was after a rain and I was able to determine that water comes in through the mast during a hard rain. I am now confident there is no seepage at the keel/stub joint and the joint is not moving under sail. HOWEVER - this year it dawned on me that the discoloration evident at the keel/stub joint goes not only onto the keel, but also onto the fiberglass stub. When I inspected the entire bottom I found that there is similar discoloration around every metal through hull as well (albeit very slight). I also determined that the area on the keel that is discolored is right at the keel bolt where the bonding wire attaches - and the bonding wire is similarly attached to all of the metal through hulls where this issue is occurring. I think it is reasonable at this point to assume I have an electrical issue and I am wondering how best to begin the troubleshooting process, especially with the boat out of the water. A couple of points - we are in fresh water (always has been) and on a mooring so the likelihood of stray current from docks or another boat are extremely slim. The good news is my magnesium sacrificial anodes have been doing their job - the prop, shaft and strut don't show any signs of corrosion, and any electrolysis around the through hulls seems to be limited to the copper bottom paint.

Is your keel cast iron? If so, have you considered using a metal free bottom paint?