27' Lancer Power sail Unresponsive helm

~Jeff~

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Jun 9, 2019
6
Lance 27' Powersail Puget Sound
I've just picked up 27' Lancer Power sail and took her yesterday for the first time.
She was neglected for 3 years, tied up in the marina and had the bare minimum of attention. After a couple full days getting her cleaned up,(new fuel, surveyed all the lines, sails etc) she was in great shape. The boat is in salt water in Puget Sound, so the growth on the hull was significant, but I've seen worse. So we backed out of the slip and pointed her down the aisle way perfectly lined up. Got to the end of the aisle and turned to port and the boat took a long lazy turn. I didn't think much of it at the time, but it was way too wide and sluggish. Couple hours of good motoring and sailing we decided to head back. On the return trip we had to make turns to starboard. The boat turned on a dime, the helm was extremely responsive. I noticed the difference and played with the helm to try to understand why I basically couldn't get the boat to turn left.
I have some theories of my own, but not being a seasoned sailor, they are probably more of a guess than theory.
Rudder moves easily left and right. appears to have full travel left and right.
Could it be growth on the bottom? on the rudder? 90HP outboard in idle while this is occurring.
Any ideas or thoughts would be appreciated
 
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
Is the outboard installed in the center, port, or starboard of the rudder? Perhaps it is creating drag moreso in one turn? Perhaps the outboard is not perfectly aligned? Is the outboard in gear when you are turning?
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
First thing I'da done is take the motor to the max and clean off the bottom as much it allows. Does your wheel allow an equal number of turns port and stbd. Possible something jammed under the floor, in the quadrant cubby.
 
Last edited:
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
It is possible your rudder IS NOT centered based on the wheel. You should (I think) 2 full turns to either side of center. You can see the rudder if you lean over (safety belt please) the stern. Check to see that it is centered. Now go below and look at the quadrant. It too should be centered. Turn the wheel to max either side and confirm the quadrant is following.

The only other explanation I can think of has been mentioned. I know my Lance 27 wants to push to port under motor is because I have knocked the motor a little from center.

One more thought. Prop walk. That is a big motor and in forward gear it tends to push to boat to starboard, to port when in reverse. So you might be fighting that little also.

Welcome aboard @~Jeff~
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,992
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Welcome @~Jeff~ Good to see a fellow PacificNW sailor here on SBO.
The performance sounds strange. Several questions come to mind. Were you using the outboard or the sails when the turning was a problem? How fast were you traveling? Did you try to turn with the motor and the sails at the same time? Prop walk could be an issue. A 90hp outboard has a fairly big footprint in the water behind the boat, Drag?

Congrats on the new boat.
 

~Jeff~

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Jun 9, 2019
6
Lance 27' Powersail Puget Sound
Is the outboard installed in the center, port, or starboard of the rudder? Perhaps it is creating drag moreso in one turn? Perhaps the outboard is not perfectly aligned? Is the outboard in gear when you are turning?
Hi-
Sorry for the delayed response, busy around here....
I only noticed the wide turn to port issue when the motor was in gear at idle moving out into the open water.
The engine is mounted center on factory mount provisions.
The outboard is "dead center" and fixed, that is it does not turn, only the rudder.
 

~Jeff~

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Jun 9, 2019
6
Lance 27' Powersail Puget Sound
First thing I'da done is take the motor to the max and clean off the bottom as much it allows. Does your wheel allow an equal number of turns port and stbd. Possible something jammed under the floor, in the quadrant cubby.
The helm seems to move equally easy to port and starboard in equal turns.
I will get under the deck and check the cables for obstructions and measure travel and report back.
 

~Jeff~

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Jun 9, 2019
6
Lance 27' Powersail Puget Sound
It is possible your rudder IS NOT centered based on the wheel. You should (I think) 2 full turns to either side of center. You can see the rudder if you lean over (safety belt please) the stern. Check to see that it is centered. Now go below and look at the quadrant. It too should be centered. Turn the wheel to max either side and confirm the quadrant is following.

The only other explanation I can think of has been mentioned. I know my Lance 27 wants to push to port under motor is because I have knocked the motor a little from center.

One more thought. Prop walk. That is a big motor and in forward gear it tends to push to boat to starboard, to port when in reverse. So you might be fighting that little also.

Welcome aboard @~Jeff~
I will check to see if the rudder is physically centered and measure turns on the wheel from there and then I will check the quadrant.
Does motor push affect the way the boat handles while moving forward at a slow idle? I know prop walk in reverse has an effect I use to my advantage, but in forward, at a VERY low idle, barely enough to keep the engine running?
When you say your motor "pushes to port", does that mean it pushes the stern of the boat to port and cancels out what your rudder is trying to accomplish by turning the bow to port?
The next paragraph you mention that a motor that large tends to push the boat to starboard...do you mean that it would push the bow to starboard? At a dead slow idle?
 
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
I too use prop walk in reverse to my advantage. However, when motoring forward in any speed, the bow wants to push to port. I have to compensate by adding starboard helm. It is very noticeable. I know what the problem is but have not been to the boat lately to correct it.

Try going out again and this time before turning put the motor in neutral. Just trying to narrow down if it is a rudder issue or a motor (excessive prop walk) issue.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,131
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
My Dad had a 29 Power Sailor. Yes, it had some prop effect in forward, but little at low throttle. I'd have a clean bottom first and go from there. BTW, good boat! Congrats.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,024
-na -NA Anywhere USA
As a former dealer for MacGregor and Hunter with the power sailors, First check the alignment of the rudder to wheel. This is important. You may need to take off the cover plate to look down and also inspect the inside brass spokes to make sure they are not worn. Make sure the chain inside is centered with the rudder, Also insure the wheel stops for port and starboard throw are in place and working. If not, fix asap.

When using a large motor it generally is on the starboard transom that I am accustomed to. Make sure your rudder is fully deployed and if not, use very little power to turn for example putting the boat onto the trailer. You will experience prop walk to the port when backing up until water flow over the rudder takes over. Never use a lot of power when making sharp turns.

Because the hull combines a power and sailboat hull configuration, I found excessive growth does affect the performance; therefore, clean off the hull is important.
If there is no rudder to motor connection rod, install one as it will give you more control when both turn at slow speed particularly when making tight turns in the marina while docking or backing up. This is written as general for all power sailors.

You report the motor is aft dead center. If dead center with the wheel/rudder, check for other things mentioned here but if the rudder is off, then correct that. Hope this helps and keep us posted.
 
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~Jeff~

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Jun 9, 2019
6
Lance 27' Powersail Puget Sound
UPDATE:
So we pulled the boat out of the water and had some barnacles/muscles on the bottom of the keel. The rest of the bottom wasnt bad, but needed new paint. We had the bottom professionally refinished because we wanted to get a professional assessment of the condition, since we had just acquired the boat; the bottom looks great now. While it was out of the water we discovered the reason for the wide turn to port and sharp starboard turn was a combination of the stop being slightly mislocated by the manufacturer. we also discovered that configuration of the steering quadrant did not allow equal travel to port and starboard, or stop to stop if you will. For whatever reason one leg of the cast bronze quadrant was much thicker than the other. We calculated how much material needed to be removed to allow equal travel. Trimmed a small amount of material off of one leg on a friends plasma cutter of the large leg and we now have equal travel in both directions. Plenty of material and strength remain. Boat goes back in the water tomorrow. We'll see how she handles.
 

~Jeff~

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Jun 9, 2019
6
Lance 27' Powersail Puget Sound
Thanks for the tips Crazy Dave.
Got a question for you...
We removed the fixed trim tabs, one was completely missing and the other was cracked and falling off.
Do you know how the boat handles with out the trim tabs? Would you recommend replacing them?
We dont plan on motoring much, it's a sailboat after all.
 
Feb 17, 2006
5,274
Lancer 27PS MCB Camp Pendleton KF6BL
The trim tabs should not be fixed, but on hydraulic actuators to adjust the trim. Unless you are using 140HP motors, they are not needed. If they are fixed then the boat was modified. Same for the quadrant. I doubt that the quadrant was a faulty install by Lancer Yachts. I believe someone got in there and did some work. I am glad you got the boat to respond. Now, go sailing.