1993 C30 MkIII Tall Rig w/ Wing Keel - Update

Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
an idea on how to improve this.
This is the easiest way to dock I have ever seen. It gets a bit tricky up here north of the US. They like to use "bull rails" instead of cleats. If the bull rail is set up properly (with a bit of tail sticking off the end, then I can still use this system. Otherwise we have to resort to a modified everyday method. Sometime it is all you got to jump to the shore.
 
May 20, 2016
3,014
Catalina 36 MK1 94 Everett, WA
Ward - when I had the boat out in the river current and wind pushing me into the down stream boat, I bolted this to the end of the dock. I hooked it with a “grab and go” https://shop.catalinaowners.com/prod.php?3600/Grab+N+Go+Hook attached to the boat hook. This was much easier to clip on -vs- picking up the spring line using a boat hook. It made the Admiral much more confident.

132D7FDF-4417-49E8-B3A2-DF22718C7BED.jpeg
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Don, I have room to run two more lines to the cockpit. I was thinking cunningham and boom vang. I can reach the outhaul cleat pretty easy.
Of those three, cunningham, boom vang and outhaul, which two would be adjusted the most making it more valuable to have them led back to the cockpit?
(main halyard, main sheet, jib halyard and reefing line are in the cockpit now).
Ward: The primary sail trim control for draft depth is the outhaul. Draft depth (belly) is your accelerator. The primary sail trim control for twist is the boom vang. The cunningham is just one of the sail trim controls used to adjust draft position. Most sailors don't mess with draft position and many don't even know what it is. I mainly used the cunningham in place of the halyard because it was easier to pull down on the main with the cunningham instead of pulling up with the halyard BUT you already have the halyard at the cockpit so you're already there with that control. I'd keep the cunningham at the mast and use it to tiddy up the final hoist position of the mainsail. So, if it was my boat (which it was), I led the boom vang and outhaul to the cockpit.
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
@Ward H What a great event. Loved the images. Boat looks great. Worth the trials you went through to find her. You are on your way. So happy that Cathy is up and able to enjoy the experience.
I like your external outhual. Are you considering racing? Trying to understand why you would change from the cleat to a camcleat. Cruising you change the adjustments less frequently then when racing trying to get that last ounce of speed constantly adjusting. I cruise and use a cleat because I want a solid set that is easy to adjust but not going to let go until I act upon it.

Now more planning for sailing. Less need to solve all the boat opportunities in one season.
Fair winds.

Oh almost forgot... My favorite way to come into a dock...
+ 1 on this. Jssailem demonstrated it to me on his boat and it worked so well it's now our standard landing. My biggest issue is coming in too close making the cleat harder to hook. I've learned to come in with a little space. Now it works great. I can't imagine why it isn't in common use. So far everyone who's seen me use it seem to be impressed.

Ken
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Ken... That is just because you are so impressive with that pretty boat and the new sails. It strikes awe into the minds of sailors and dock folk. And because you are using the best docking technique known to man, but not often shared.
 

pateco

.
Aug 12, 2014
2,207
Hunter 31 (1983) Pompano Beach FL
If you get into a fleet that is too competitive, you'll be sailing against other boats and the skipper's checkbook. Unless you are flat out committed to hard core racing, you will end up frustrated.
We were starting to run into this issue with our club. The spendy racers needed longer courses, and that meant a lot of the slower boats could never achieve a podium, and there were many DNFs due to time. Because of this we initiated a new race class for our club called "Gunkhole" designed for cruising boats out to have some fun racing. Most boats have Dacron sails and fixed props. Several of these boats are full time liveaboards, and there are a lot of mounted BBQ grills, and dinghys on fore-decks LOL. They run a shorter course, and don't have to compete against the guys with carbon sails and dyneema rigging, that polish their hulls before each race. It is now the fastest growing fleet in our race series. Over time we expect the fastest boats to move up in class as they improve their racing skills, allowing "Gunkhole" to remain a fleet for newbies and cruisers to get their racing feet wet.
 
Jan 2, 2017
765
O'Day & Islander 322 & 37 Scottsdale, AZ & Owls Head, ME
Nice Harken traveler but someone led the lines through several blocks and mounted the cam cleats on the teak of the sliding hatch cover. That added a lot of friction. I'll be moving them back to the traveler.
More friction, but it keeps the traveler lines tidy and I within reach. The trouble with nothing but traveler mounted cams is that the lines flop around and fall off the cabin top. You might consider running them through a padeye mounted above the cockpit bulkhead, midway from companionway to cabin side. It would keep them tidy and you can grab them aft of the padeye to trim, or forward of the padeye to pop and release. That’s what I did.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
If you get into a fleet that is too competitive, you'll be sailing against other boats and the skipper's checkbook. Unless you are flat out committed to hard core racing, you will end up frustrated.
I race and coach all over the place, and I've found out that the effect described above is people confusing causation with correlation.

Good racers do well because that are in fact good racers. That fact that that spend more money makes them better, but nowhere near as much as people think. Swap boats with them and they'll still beat you. Get beat by seconds and maybe the other guys new jib factored. get beat by half an hour and I assure you that not his sails.
 

pateco

.
Aug 12, 2014
2,207
Hunter 31 (1983) Pompano Beach FL
I race and coach all over the place, and I've found out that the effect described above is people confusing causation with correlation.

Good racers do well because that are in fact good racers. That fact that that spend more money makes them better, but nowhere near as much as people think. Swap boats with them and they'll still beat you. Get beat by seconds and maybe the other guys new jib factored. get beat by half an hour and I assure you that not his sails.
@Jackdaw

I agree up to a point, But when you put this boat:
easy.jpg

In the same class as this boat:
ThirdTri.jpg


They don't get to learn much from each other due to the great difference in performance.Plus a course that would challenge the TRI for a couple of hours, might cause the other boat to DNF for time.
 
Last edited:
Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I race and coach all over the place, and I've found out that the effect described above is people confusing causation with correlation.

Good racers do well because that are in fact good racers. That fact that that spend more money makes them better, but nowhere near as much as people think. Swap boats with them and they'll still beat you. Get beat by seconds and maybe the other guys new jib factored. get beat by half an hour and I assure you that not his sails.
You're right, skilled racers can get better performance out of any boat. By referring to the skipper's checkbook, I am using that as a proxy for skill level. Better racers, more committed racers, are willing to both spend more time and effort on their sailing skills than less committed racers, but that doesn't mean the less committed are having any less fun. My point is more about seeking a level of competition that fits your skill and commitment level. That works for both good and developing sailors. While it is always fun to do a horizon job on the fleet, if it is happening every week, perhaps sailing in a more competitive and skilled fleet would be appropriate.

It is also not just about fancy sails and clean bottoms. More competitive racers tend to be more aggressive on the line, more confident of the rules, and more aggressive at mark roundings. It takes a lot of experience to find and hold an opening on the line. The close proximity of the boats, the noise and the commotion cause some sailors to back off and become gun shy. If a sailor is gun shy it will be more fun to sail against other gun shy sailors because it will be fleet of equals.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
@Jackdaw

I agree up to a point, But when you put this boat:

In the same class as this boat:


They don't get to learn much from each other due to the great difference in performance.Plus a course that would challenge the TRI for a couple of hours, might cause the other boat to DNF for time.
That should never ever happen. No good PRO would have multi races against monos, or spins vs non-spins for that matter.

The difference in basic speeds puts them on different parts of the courses at widely different times, making a fair race impossible. Not to mention that the PHRF ratings for these classes are NOT designs to be raced against each other.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Not to mention that the PHRF ratings for these classes are NOT designs to be raced against each other.
SO true... but if you are forced to race against them, then plan to DQ them at the start of the race. Take a hit for the team. Make it a glancing blow but one that gives you a chance.:ass::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
You're right, skilled racers can get better performance out of any boat. By referring to the skipper's checkbook, I am using that as a proxy for skill level. Better racers, more committed racers, are willing to both spend more time and effort on their sailing skills than less committed racers, but that doesn't mean the less committed are having any less fun. My point is more about seeking a level of competition that fits your skill and commitment level. That works for both good and developing sailors. While it is always fun to do a horizon job on the fleet, if it is happening every week, perhaps sailing in a more competitive and skilled fleet would be appropriate.

It is also not just about fancy sails and clean bottoms. More competitive racers tend to be more aggressive on the line, more confident of the rules, and more aggressive at mark roundings. It takes a lot of experience to find and hold an opening on the line. The close proximity of the boats, the noise and the commotion cause some sailors to back off and become gun shy. If a sailor is gun shy it will be more fun to sail against other gun shy sailors because it will be fleet of equals.
I agree, but now you're making my point. ;^) I just don't like perpetuating the notion that better racers are better because they spend more money. They're most often simply better racers. The checkbook excuse serves no good end, and perpetuates the mistaken notion that you have to spend a lot to be good at this sport.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Granted money is not the only element but it can be a factor. In single PHRF races where the fleet is similar it is a lesser factor. But when you have multiple races against the same players and the new sails money against the old sails money even the most clever skipper will be challenged. A few seconds to several minutes each race over a 5 race series is like digging a ditch and thinking you can get out if you dig a little deeper.
 

pateco

.
Aug 12, 2014
2,207
Hunter 31 (1983) Pompano Beach FL
That should never ever happen. No good PRO would have multi races against monos, or spins vs non-spins for that matter.

The difference in basic speeds puts them on different parts of the courses at widely different times, making a fair race impossible. Not to mention that the PHRF ratings for these classes are NOT designs to be raced against each other.
OK you got me there. I was exaggerating the boat speed differences. The Tri actually races in our ARC class against other boats with Spinnakers where the mono would have been in our JAM (Jib and Main) class prior to the new Gunkhole class. The issue is that the boat below would also be in the JAM class.
JAM example.jpg
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Swap boats with them and they'll still beat you.

Years ago I was part of the C30 National Team. There were about 5 of us who were C30 owners and we traveled to C30 regatta events all over the US. Each of us had their own boat job - mine was traveler/mainsheet. At most events, the race organizers gave us the crappiest boat they could find. Sails were poor, fairleads didn't work, travelers were hard to adjust, bird crap all over everything etc. In the LA, Ca area, we had good boats because I picked them out but in San Diego, San Fran, Santa Cruz it was the same old story. We knew what to expect and never complained about what they gave us.

The bottom line was we never finished lower than 2nd and most times won the regatta. The reason was as jackdaw suggests -- we knew the C30, we also knew our crew jobs and the result was we knew how to get 100% efficiency out of her. I really never like racing that much - I like just cruising around and while having a "tinney" (Aussie for beer). Racing many times gave me a headache but I sure miss those C30 national races.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I agree, but now you're making my point. ;^) I just don't like perpetuating the notion that better racers are better because they spend more money. They're most often simply better racers. The checkbook excuse serves no good end, and perpetuates the mistaken notion that you have to spend a lot to be good at this sport.
At the risk of taking this thread on a flyer past the lay line...

The folks who are good racers and competitive sailors spend more money than the guy who just goes out for Wednesday Beer Can races. Some of it is spent on equipment, sails and such, some of it is spent on learning at North Sails seminars and some of it spent on the care and feeding of the crew. Good sailors don't get that way by divine intervention, they work at it, they sail a lot, and they compete a lot. And not just on the local course, they travel to different venues and different regattas sailing on different boats against better sailors. All that costs money.

The average sailor who simply spends lots of money on the boat will be a marginally better average sailor. The average sailor who spends money on the boat and also on himself and the crew with training and traveling will be an above average sailor.

In this sport, money alone is not the answer to success, it is knowing where to spend the money that is important. That's ok, and it is the nature of any sport I can think of. If you want to have fun and not be excessively frustrated it will be best to sail in a fleet that matches your skills and resources or find a fleet that has a handicapping system that does a better job of recognizing individual differences in boats and crews.
 

JRT

.
Feb 14, 2017
2,037
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
Well Ward at this point we need updated pictures of your tricked out C30 with those cool black sails, it's only money now isn't it?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
At the risk of taking this thread on a flyer past the lay line...

The folks who are good racers and competitive sailors spend more money than the guy who just goes out for Wednesday Beer Can races. Some of it is spent on equipment, sails and such, some of it is spent on learning at North Sails seminars and some of it spent on the care and feeding of the crew. Good sailors don't get that way by divine intervention, they work at it, they sail a lot, and they compete a lot. And not just on the local course, they travel to different venues and different regattas sailing on different boats against better sailors. All that costs money.

The average sailor who simply spends lots of money on the boat will be a marginally better average sailor. The average sailor who spends money on the boat and also on himself and the crew with training and traveling will be an above average sailor.

In this sport, money alone is not the answer to success, it is knowing where to spend the money that is important. That's ok, and it is the nature of any sport I can think of. If you want to have fun and not be excessively frustrated it will be best to sail in a fleet that matches your skills and resources or find a fleet that has a handicapping system that does a better job of recognizing individual differences in boats and crews.
That's a great point and I see were you are going with that.

For me, I understand that the time I put into getting good at something is an investment. Not the same as a writing a check, it's TIME, which is much more valuable. It cannot be compressed. A year of coaching cannot be made into 10 years of skill building by adding another zero to the check. You gotta do the time. Blindly thinking the other guy is better because he writes bigger checks is wrote thinking. So is thinking you can beat him with your checkbook!

 
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