Keel mounting cracks

[Jamescal20]

Hi All,

Happy to be here. Recently picked up a cal 20 in Los Angeles for $800 in pretty decent shape for the money. I’ve taken it out five times in two weeks and having a blast! Question for you: where the keel bolts are visible inside the cabin there seem to be some cracks in what I’m assuming are a plastic liner on top of the fiber glass. The bolts look rust free but Ive noticed water seems to get inside the cracks a bit- is this just a liner or something more nefarious like cracked fiberglass?

Is this a repair that needs to happen for her to be safe long term, or just a cosmetic issue?

Thank you for your help!

 

[Jamescal20]

Doesn’t look like the picture worked. Here’s a link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kypAi87HkgSK_dxXgupdHrOFP2N2mix6

 

[dlochner]

James,

A photo is essential. The link you provided requires permission to access the photo. I don't think you want to give the world access to your Google Drive.

Download the photo to your computer and then use the "upload a file" button to upload the photo to your post.

 

[Jamescal20]

Good idea @dlochner. Thanks for the heads up.

Here is the photo:

 

[DArcy]

Are the cracks forward or aft of the bolts? Are there any signs of cracking or keel separating from the outside? I don't know the CAL 20 at all but that looks like you are seeing the hull, not a liner.
It always amazes me when you see something as critical as keel bolts through fiberglass with no backing plates, only standard washers.

 

[rgranger]

If water is coming up through the bolts, you probably have to do some repairs. Is there any obvious keel separation visible from outside the boat?

I also agree with @DArcy - Islay Mist . If you do a major repair, I would add a more substantial backing plate.

 

[Jamescal20]

Are the cracks forward or aft of the bolts? Are there any signs of cracking or keel separating from the outside? I don't know the CAL 20 at all but that looks like you are seeing the hull, not a liner.
It always amazes me when you see something as critical as keel bolts through fiberglass with no backing plates, only standard washers.

Thanks for the response- the only thing is you can push down on the cracked pieces and they're not solid fiberglass- more like a business card thick piece of plastic. I don't see any separation at the hull whatsoever and the boat is stored dry so I've had a good look. I think the water may just be from spray, waves etc.

The cracks are forward of the bolts.

What material is generally used for a backing plate?

 

[dlochner]

What I find odd about the photo is the gelcoat. Hull are generally made in a female mold which leaves the inside of the hull with raw glass, no gelcoat. Hull liners are generally made on a male mold which leaves the finished surface facing out. In the photo the keel sump looks to be a finished surface, i.e., one with gelcoat. So, I'm puzzled.

You might find more information on Cal 20 class association website, https://www.cal20.org

 

[DArcy]

It is possible this is some kind of liner. Maybe they use the keel bolts to hold down the liner and there are nuts underneath with a proper backing plate against the hull. If that is the case the liner must be removable. If you can find an edge of the liner you may be able to see under it. It would be strange not to have some access to the bilge. Is there a bilge sump you can look into? Maybe you can stick your phone in and take a picture.

 

[JRT]

In this case I would just monitor it, since it is an old boat anyway. you could put some larger stainless steel fender washers or make some plate from stainless steel the same thickness as the washes. Personally that is a lot of work that is probably not needed, I assume this is a fun boat to mess around on and you won't be crossing any ocean any time soon...

 

[rgranger]

....Maybe they use the keel bolts to hold down the liner and there are nuts underneath with a proper backing plate against the hull. ...

That would be a good outcome. Nothing to worry about go sailing

 

[NYSail]

My first boat, a cal 34-iii and all the other cals I am familiar with (2-30 and 40) had encapsulated ballast so no bolts. What year boat is it? Go sailing..... doesn’t look bad.

Greg

 

[Jamescal20]

Well, I appreciate all the feedback. It seems the consensus is keep an eye on it, and have fun on her. Since there is no hull separation, I'm guess she's okay and its just a liner on top of a mounting plate.

Thanks again everyone. Happy sailing

 

[Jamescal20]

My first boat, a cal 34-iii and all the other cals I am familiar with (2-30 and 40) had encapsulated ballast so no bolts. What year boat is it? Go sailing..... doesn’t look bad.

Greg

79 I believe? Perhaps they were added later, hence the cracks in the liner? looks awfully similar to the bilge on my sJ 24 as I recall.

 

[NYSail]

There would never be hull separation with a Cal encapsulated keel..... the hull is load bearing as per Bill Lapworths design.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

How about a larger photo taken on your IPhone of the entire bilge area so we can get a better idea? What is the hole behind the two nuts and bolts.
As a former dealership of various manufacturers of sailboats, I would watch at the factories hulls being laid. I never saw a liner for the hull other than stringers which were for structural support that included a floor pan over the hull, lid over the hull for water ballast and so on. Thus no liner for the bilge. As for the washers seen assuming they are keel bolts, they are too smalll to distribute the load of a keel thus being over tightened compressing downward over time.
Have you seen water coming thru the bolts yourself. Leave the boat with a dry bilge and return in a few days without any rain, to observe water in the bilge or not. If none, then it would tell me you have a topside leak. Then there is a simpler way to find those but one step at a time
For the record I was not a Cal dealer nor was I in their plant. I may be right or wrong.

 

[DrJudyB]

@Jamescal20
The Cal 20 has a cast iron keel with an outward flange on each side. The keel bolts go through holes in the flange, then through the hull and through the cabin liner. The bolt is. Secured with a nut and washer on top.

It’s an easy job to remove and replace the bolts on this type of construction. Remove the nut and push the bolt down. The bolts are not threaded into the keel.

On the Cal 20s, Its pretty common to find a crack in the liner near a bolt. Usually it means thereis a void between the hull and the liner, and the bolt was torqued too tight. the standard fix for that is to remove the bolt, grind away some of the liner so you reach the void, fill the void and build the liner back up. Fit a new SS bolt with sealant through the exterior flange up, though the hull and liner, fit a washer and nut, and torque not too tight. (150 foot pounds is the number I’ve heard.)

If the bolts look like they’re in good condition, I’d go sailing and fix it at my leisure the next time I did a bottom job on the boat. The keel isn’t going to fall of if the liner is cracked in one spot. The crack in the hull line won't cause a leak,either, by itself.

 

[DrJudyB]

@Jamescal20
Here’s a good video showing how the keel attaches on a Cal20. It’s held in place by only the bolts though the flange and through the hull and liner.

You don’t need to put sealant between the the keel and the hull. Class rules allow you to use a small bead of fairing along the side edges of the keel but don’t permit it to be fared completely to the hull.

 

[DrJudyB]

It would be strange not to have some access to the bilge. Is there a bilge sump you can look into? Maybe you can stick your phone in and take a picture.

Cal 20s are indeed different from other boats. There is no bilge sump on a Cal 20. The keel has a flat flange on the sides, which is through-bolted to the hull/liner.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Judy
Good right up