Electric Ferries Coming to Maine?

Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
Will cars be able to plug in and charge while transiting?
Interesting idea but not part of the Ontario design. The ramp up to ramp down transit time is about 20 minutes so wouldn’t do much for current automotive type battery anyway.

As I understand it the ferry will “plug” itself in at the terminal and draw power from a battery bank on the dock at a very fast rate, I picture this more like a capacitor than a ‘battery”. The bank on the dock recharges from the grid. The “battery bank” on the ship is sized so it will run the ship during “Normal” operations. There is a diesel backup if needed, I’m not sure if it’s a generator that charges the bank or the the ship directly.

Some info on the Wolfe Island vessel
 

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CarlN

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Jan 4, 2009
603
Ketch 55 Bristol, RI
Wow. 3000 amps (at 1000V) charge. That's some shore power cable!

This is a good example of why battery powered ships are not going to be common anytime soon. If this ferry had to make a 90 minute trip instead of a 20 minute trip, you'd never be able to stuff enough batteries on board or charge them fast enough to make more than 1 or 2 trips a day. Just getting this sort of electricity down to the Maine state ferry docks in Maine would be a challenge. The Maine grid just isn't built to deliver that much power.

What they should focus on first is filtering and scrubbing the other dangerous polluting gases (NOx, Sox, and particulates) out of the ferry diesel exhaust. That's a good first step.
 
Jan 4, 2010
1,037
Farr 30 San Francisco
Looks like it can run 2hrs on a charge and go about 26 miles. The propulsion is 4x520kw call it 2000kW the battery is 4000kwh so two hours operation at max power. The trip to Wolfe island from Kingston is 20 min and it looks like about 3 miles on the map.
Fuel cost for the ferry would be .33 hr at 2MW is about 660kwh at $0.1 per kWh that works out to $66 worth of fuel spread amongst 80 cars. Electric propulsion is cheap.

The charger is 3MW so would take about 12 min to replenish the charge from each trip, that probably beats the unload/load time.
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
Looks like it can run 2hrs on a charge and go about 26 miles. The propulsion is 4x520kw call it 2000kW the battery is 4000kwh so two hours operation at max power. The trip to Wolfe island from Kingston is 20 min and it looks like about 3 miles on the map.
Fuel cost for the ferry would be .33 hr at 2MW is about 660kwh at $0.1 per kWh that works out to $66 worth of fuel spread amongst 80 cars. Electric propulsion is cheap.

The charger is 3MW so would take about 12 min to replenish the charge from each trip, that probably beats the unload/load time.
@JohnShannon
That’s a nice way to present the info, cost of propulsion!

I am curious about how you derived the kWh rate of $0.1 though?

I have no idea what the Ontario gov charges itself for hydro but consumers pay some of the highest rates in the world.
 

Bob J.

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Apr 14, 2009
773
Sabre 28 NH
This is a good example of why battery powered ships are not going to be common anytime soon.
Few years ago I'd agree. Now, not so sure. Seems like the world is focusing on electricity to power short range vessels from canal boats/water taxis to ferries.
I did an electric conversion on our sailboat. I really have no regrets. It's clean, simple, pretty quiet & I don't have to smell diesel.
 
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Sep 24, 2018
2,549
O'Day 25 Chicago
Yes can’t you just picture a deckhand dragging that off the boat to plug it in! ;)
I've dragged 100' four conductor feeder cable a few times for a concerts in my early 20's. I could barely stand up with it coiled up on my shoulder. I can't imagine the cabling required to handle 3MW!

I'm curious how how much lower the maintenance is on this all electric setup is over the long run. Electric vehicles have limitations but if you stay within those limitations I think its a great way to go
 

PaulK

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Dec 1, 2009
1,222
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
Keeping it running should be a lot simpler. We have a friend in the automotive repair/maintenance business. He’s thinking electric cars are going to make his company go away. Some of the electric train locomotives that ran past our Jr. High School (GG1’s) would hit 80 mph... and they were 30 years old. Should we buy stock in GE or Westinghouse?
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
I think governments are under pressure by an increasingly more concerned population that is demanding change in how their tax $ is spent. Personal or political motivations are driving leadership decisions on issues such as renewable energy, reduce emissions, cost reductions etc.

The government can get a lot of political bang for the buck by implementing electric ferries. They are rare now so newsworthy, the people who ride ferries are somewhat closer to nature than a commuter driving on a freeway, the government can claim they have met some of their emissions targets etc.
My point is that it seems that it is “politically” smart to do this. Just my 2 cents.
 
Jan 4, 2010
1,037
Farr 30 San Francisco
@JohnShannon
That’s a nice way to present the info, cost of propulsion!

I am curious about how you derived the kWh rate of $0.1 though?

I have no idea what the Ontario gov charges itself for hydro but consumers pay some of the highest rates in the world.
Flat out guess, but electricity has been about $0.1/kwh since 1900 of course adjusted for inflation it is relatively cheaper. The rest of it should be accurate to within 20%
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
Ontario has for most consumers a Time Of Use system, The rates for Dec 2019 are as follows:

Off Peak - 10.1c per kWh
Mid Peak - 14.4c per kWh
On Peak - 20.8c per kWh

On top of the "electricity charge" is a Delivery component of roughly 1/3 of the electricity cost.
There is also a Regulatory Charge which is about 1/10 of the Delivery
Then of course there is HST tax of 13%

Currently there is a "rebate" program which reduces the total by about 1/3.
 
Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
Politically correct

Bob
It is ALSO "correct" but I believe it's "smart" for a politician to choose to introduce an electric ferry. Hits a LOT of boxes on the plus side and being "NEW" gives them an easy out if things don't go well. Notice I didn't say "intelligent"! ;)
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,884
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
I hope the design has motor beds that match the diesel engines' that will replace the motors.. I don't think that a rigorous economic analysis (wire size and transformer size increases) would justify the switch to all electric. Hybrid in a boat is not a good option because to get a 100 horsepower electric output, ya need around 125 HP of diesel power to get the same performance. The current (pun?) stable of diesel engines can be very clean if they meet state of the art controls..
Mr. Peukert's notes are players in this kind of operation..
 
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Sep 24, 2018
2,549
O'Day 25 Chicago
the government can claim they have met some of their emissions targets etc.
I'm curious if the public will start looking at the increased increase from power plants and if that increase will be of any significance

wire size and transformer size increases
As I'm sure most of us know, power companies will often step up voltages for long distances. Voltage goes up and amperage/wire gauge goes down. I'm curious if this would be a potential solution and how far can it be pushed before issues start to arise.
 

CarlN

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Jan 4, 2009
603
Ketch 55 Bristol, RI
I found this picture of the robotic shore power arm.

A big problem is that the shore charging station hasn't been built or the grid upgraded to handle it - so for the foreseeable future the ferry will run as a diesel-electric "hybrid" putting out just as much CO2 as a conventional diesel powered ferry.

Someday this will be a good idea but I wish they had thought about getting enough charging capacity on shore. Not having that ready in time makes this all pointless. Just like selling electric cars without enough charging stations or grid capacity to power them

And as for Maine, it seems unlikely this will work for the Maine ferries that almost all have longer trips than 20 minutes (not to mention the millions likely required ashore to upgrade the antique, creaky Maine electric grid).

Again, for now they should find a way to upgrade the existing ferries with scrubbers or SCR to reduce NOx - a terrible pollutants that kill people and damages the oceans.

Or Maine should explore hydrogen. It emits zero CO2 (or other pollutants). Used everyday in California in thousands of cars - it's been safer than EV cars (battery fires). The problem is that today's hydrogen is made using natural gas which emits CO2 but new technology is coming to make hydrogen from wind power or solar. It would be easy to fuel at the ferry dock.
 

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Sep 22, 2018
1,869
Hunter 216 Kingston
I found this picture of the robotic shore power arm.

A big problem is that the shore charging station hasn't been built or the grid upgraded to handle it - so for the foreseeable future the ferry will run as a diesel-electric "hybrid" putting out just as much CO2 as a conventional diesel powered ferry.

Someday this will be a good idea but I wish they had thought about getting enough charging capacity on shore. Not having that ready in time makes this all pointless. Just like selling electric cars without enough charging stations or grid capacity to power them

And as for Maine, it seems unlikely this will work for the Maine ferries that almost all have longer trips than 20 minutes (not to mention the millions likely required ashore to upgrade the antique, creaky Maine electric grid).

Again, for now they should find a way to upgrade the existing ferries with scrubbers or SCR to reduce NOx - a terrible pollutants that kill people and damages the oceans.

Or Maine should explore hydrogen. It emits zero CO2 (or other pollutants). Used everyday in California in thousands of cars - it's been safer than EV cars (battery fires). The problem is that today's hydrogen is made using natural gas which emits CO2 but new technology is coming to make hydrogen from wind power or solar. It would be easy to fuel at the ferry dock.
There seem to be lots of decisions that don’t stand up to scrutiny and from certain perspectives seem to defy common sense.

Your example of promoting electric car use but not have the fueling infrastructure in place to make them practical at the beginning is one of those shake your head what are they thinking things. However doing nothing to initiate a change in mindset doesn’t work well either.

Maybe there is an underlying “plot” to upgrade the electrical grid in Maine and this is a catalyst ;)

I try not to dig to deeply into the no fossil fuel trend. After all how is the electricity produced? Are the long term harmful effects of all the “new batteries” known and are they better than what they are replacing?

I find I prefer going out on our sailboat preferable to our powerboat. Just saying ;)