Humble pie & damaged gear for Race 2!

Oct 26, 2008
6,048
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
We had a great day on Saturday for sailboat racing! Stu @lehighsail and @Ward H joined me for the 2nd Tall Oaks race and 3rd Saturday in a row for Ward and I. This week, we had blustery and shifty wind from the northwest. The course was a triangle, again, with a twist at the end.

They typically set the start/finish about midway between the windward and leeward marks. I don't know if this is typical, but it seems to be the way they like to do it. So we had 2 laps around the triangle (reaching legs were about a mile each) and the last lap was just windward leeward, so we start and finish on beat. The start/finish line was a little closer to the windward mark, so the first beat was a little shorter than the finish beat. It took us about 2 hours to do the 3 laps. I think the leader did it in about 1:30.

This time there were 5 boats with 2 new ones this week. A very-well sailed Catalina 30 smoked the field by a lot, with our dock neighbor filling in as crew on that boat. Dick has been telling Ward that he should start racing his Catalina 30 because it's a fast boat! We saw it first hand on Saturday!

As usual, the Tartan 40 jumped out to a fast lead with the Cat 30 keeping pace surpisingly! We were in a tight dual with the Morgan 30 and another older 32' boat (I can't think of the make) for most of the 2 laps around the triangle, until we fell way behind on the long beat at the end of the 2nd lap. We were well behind by the time we rounded the upwind mark for the last (3rd) time.

Highlights for us … we nailed the start and were 1st over the line! The committee boat captured it on video and posted it on their facebook page! We had 3 close interactions with that 32' boat, first one was at the start, and the other 2 were at the leeward mark, and each time, I think we did it right. At least nobody protested, so I think we were ok! Dick says they are a pretty relaxed group, though, and protests are very rare. Our pattern is that we sail fast and make up ground on the reaches but we struggle with the upwind beats.

As it turned out, the Tartan ran aground and had to motor off. So we finished 4th of the 5. Result was disappointing, but the experience and time we had was fantastic! We had lots of tense moments to get the excitement level high. The crew was great the whole time. The captain didn't make the best decisions on the upwind legs. At one point near the end of the 2nd beat (the 1st long one), Stu said something to the effect that it looked more favorable to go left on the starboard tack for a longer time. We were behind our 2 competitors rounding the mark at the time. But after the 2 long reaches, we pulled ahead and rounded the leeward mark in front of them. We actually left the Morgan pretty far behind and it seemed he was going to be out of it. But I stayed to the right side of the course and later found myself way behind both boats again! Stu had to be right because the Morgan went way left and marched way past us. The other boat seemed to see what was going on because I think they eventually went left, too. As it turned out, the Morgan finished a very strong 2nd! That was great for him cause he is a great guy and he has a beautiful boat!

The after party was a good time and I got to learn a whole bunch of things about what was going on during the race. This is getting to be real fun! I told Ward that we're really racers now … I now have a long tear in my genoa at the foot of the sail and in the leech as a result of the race. Now that we're damaging gear, we've been baptized!
 
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Feb 21, 2008
408
Hunter 33 Metedeconk River
We did all have a great time Scott and this was a very positive learning experience for all of us. Hope we can do it again!
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,048
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
@lehighsail & @Ward H , I found out why Blue Moon was having so much difficulty. The boat is new to them this year and that Tartan 40 has 2 stays for the head sails. The first 2 weeks they were sailing with the smaller sail on the inner stay and everything was normal. Saturday, they were sailing with a larger sail on the outer stay. They had never practiced tacks and gybes where the sail had to pass thru the narrow slot. It caused them all sorts of grief. That's where Escapade passed them. Finally, at the leeward mark, they were having trouble and drifted over to where they grounded. That's when we thought we saw them pointed the opposite direction. They were motoring off! At the end, they were just practicing maneuvers until the Morgan caught up with them and they had a little drag race to the finish. The horns went off 3 seconds apart.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
That Tartan is a 4000 and should simply destroy all the boats in that fleet on the water. If anyone is keeping up with them they are sailing like crap! Sailing with the outer stay sail, they need to partially (at least) furl it before tacking or gybing. The two stays are a great feature but thats the cost!

That course is called an ‘Olympic’. It has lost favor to pure windward/leeward, due to the lack of passing ability and tactics on the reaching legs. The middle upwind line allows a single boat to set an upwind start and an upwind finish, both which are desirable.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
That course is called an ‘Olympic’. It has lost favor to pure windward/leeward, due to the lack of passing ability and tactics on the reaching legs. The middle upwind line allows a single boat to set an upwind start and an upwind finish, both which are desirable.
Thanks, Jack. When I raced on SF Bay (1999-2006), that course started going out of favor, too. Except for the one time I passed a buddy on a reaching leg from the north side of the Bay to the Cityfront! I got upwind of him and he was overpowered, so I was sailing faster and flatter. Otherwise, the reaching legs were pretty boring.

Can you explain how the single boat to set a start works? I can't envision it.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Thanks, Jack. When I raced on SF Bay (1999-2006), that course started going out of favor, too. Except for the one time I passed a buddy on a reaching leg from the north side of the Bay to the Cityfront! I got upwind of him and he was overpowered, so I was sailing faster and flatter. Otherwise, the reaching legs were pretty boring.

Can you explain how the single boat to set a start works? I can't envision it.
Sure, but I’m guessing you know it. For maximum tactical opportunities, RCs like to start and finish a race with a windward leg. It allows passing into clear air. It’s why the most popular buoy racetrack is a W/L5, with upwind legs to start and finish (up down up down up). But it takes two boats and two pins, or the start boat to move and create a totally new finish line. Having a common line halfway up the leg allows the start and finish to be upwind, without having to move the line. Olympic shown.

04197B53-2675-43F1-88D8-9F919E4DF6CF.jpeg
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,048
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Nobody is catching up to that Tartan when they were sailing their normal game. The boat is new to them this year and I heard the captain say that they were attempting to feed the sail thru the slot without furling first. They basically were working out the kinks in this race, I guess. Plus, grounding didn't help them either! The leeward mark was near a shallow area and they normally sail in the bay with just a foot or so under the keel. This boat was intended for ocean cruising and that is what they seem to do when they are not racing with us. Everybody seems to be glad that they are in the fleet for racing. They are a very active member and very well liked as far as I can tell, so there is no need to disparage their sailing ability.

I was mostly impressed at how fast the Catalina 30 was sailing in comparison to us. They were using a laminated tri-radial headsail that appeared to be perfectly sized for the wind strength. Every photo that I saw of their boat, it was clear how well-trimmed the sail always was. Our dock neighbor said they made no mistakes and kept momentum going the entire race. Photos of our boat showed a different story. I was appalled by the shape of the headsail in particular. It was usually collapsed and luffing at the front of the sail and blown out with way too much draft at the leech end of it. No wonder I felt like I was continuously being headed. I never felt like I could get in a groove on the upwind legs.

In fact, the wind was pretty changeable. We started with a reef in the mainsail and the genoa as others did, too. By the time we rounded the first upwind mark, it was clear that we needed full sail. But it was up and down throughout the race. Sailing upwind legs, we needed to furl some of the head sail in. The Tartan even started with their inner headsail and was in the process of taking their usual huge lead. The wind shifted to the point where some were sailing wing on wing to the reaching mark as the first reach was almost dead downwind and the second reach was more of a beam reach. We sailed the first reach on starboard reach as it seemed to work best for us and we gained on the 2 boats we were closest to. The next time around, I wanted to experiment and see if we could improve our position (perhaps getting desperate, too :() by sailing wing on wing with the whisker pole. The wind wasn't quite in the right direction and we couldn't sail high enough to the mark, so we quickly gave up on that idea and went back to reaching, which worked much better for us. Oh well, it was worth a try if only for the experience!
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Nobody is catching up to that Tartan when they were sailing their normal game. The boat is new to them this year and I heard the captain say that they were attempting to feed the sail thru the slot without furling first. They basically were working out the kinks in this race, I guess. Plus, grounding didn't help them either! The leeward mark was near a shallow area and they normally sail in the bay with just a foot or so under the keel. This boat was intended for ocean cruising and that is what they seem to do when they are not racing with us. Everybody seems to be glad that they are in the fleet for racing. They are a very active member and very well liked as far as I can tell, so there is no need to disparage their sailing ability.
Sorry, it was not my intent to be 'disparaging'. But I look at it this way. This is RACING. And unless nobody cares and everyone gets a participation prize, there are winners and losers. Winners usually sail better than losers. Sometimes losers sail well and lose for the smallest of reasons. Sometime they sail poorly and get crushed. Most racers I know have thick enough skin to 'put the turd on the table' and examine why they did poorly, and call it what it is. Its how you get better. Sounds like what they were doing post-race. I'm guessing the T4000 skipper would have called his racing 'crap' that day. I'll refrain from commenting anymore, to avoid any more hurt feelings!
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,048
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I'm guessing the T4000 skipper would have called his racing 'crap' that day. I'll refrain from commenting anymore, to avoid any more hurt feelings!
I'm sure we're all adult here and have thick enough skin. I'm just a little sensitive about talking out of school in an internet forum where new friends may or may not be reading. I don't intend to disparage anybody for what they may or may not have done wrong during a race. I'm simply describing what I am seeing, hearing and experiencing from my inexperienced perspective. If anybody wants to say that I sail like crap, I'm all for it!:waycool:
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Thanks Jack. What I was having difficulty with was the English ftrom the first post: The middle upwind line allows a single boat to set an upwind start and an upwind finish, both which are desirable.

I missed the concept of THE RC boat simply staying in one place for both S and F. Although I knew I knew I knew that....

Got it now!
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I'm sure we're all adult here and have thick enough skin. I'm just a little sensitive about talking out of school in an internet forum where new friends may or may not be reading. I don't intend to disparage anybody for what they may or may not have done wrong during a race. I'm simply describing what I am seeing, hearing and experiencing from my inexperienced perspective. If anybody wants to say that I sail like crap, I'm all for it!:waycool:
Fair enough. I think everyone learns when you look at the good and bad, where ever it lies. And call it like it is. Hard to get better with a thick layer of sugar coating on it. As for me, if I have a hard time tacking in a race, please feel free to publicly say I'm sailing like crap! ;^) Thats not even a racing issue yet, that a pure sailing one. Sailing close-hauled upwind, another!
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Thanks Jack. What I was having difficulty with was the English ftrom the first post: The middle upwind line allows a single boat to set an upwind start and an upwind finish, both which are desirable.

I missed the concept of THE RC boat simply staying in one place for both S and F. Although I knew I knew I knew that....

Got it now!
Thats why I prefaced it the way I did..... ;^)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
The mid-leg start and finish line also adds a complexity that makes many PROs skip setting them, anyone know what it is??
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,048
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
When you have a multitude of fleets, it probably makes it very difficult to have a race while the later fleets are milling around the start line!
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
When you have a multitude of fleets, it probably makes it very difficult to have a race while the later fleets are milling around the start line!
That’s on the right track. The usual issue ends up being later, when you have boats finishing. Here comes RED to finish, while laggard (or later start) GREEN is coming downwind. Oops.

69B8C7BF-30C2-4326-9994-19750E09808D.jpeg


Image more than one red!!

Some YCs will deal with this by declaring a ‘poison’ line; which after the start the line cannot be cannot be crossed again (from either direction) until finishing.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,048
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Ha! That was us on Saturday! We were wing on wing heading downwind pointed right at my friend on the Catalina 30 as they were approaching the finish line (I didn't have a lot of maneuverability. The Captain kept complaining to his crew that I was going to foul them (he didn't know me). Dick said "no he's not". We had to duck behind them and I did it with enough room that it was clear that I wasn't going to cross them. We were the only 2 boats in the area so it wasn't really a problem.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Ha! That was us on Saturday! We were wing on wing heading downwind pointed right at my friend on the Catalina 30 as they were approaching the finish line (I didn't have a lot of maneuverability. The Captain kept complaining to his crew that I was going to foul them (he didn't know me). Dick said "no he's not". We had to duck behind them and I did it with enough room that it was clear that I wasn't going to cross them. We were the only 2 boats in the area so it wasn't really a problem.
There you go! Sounds like you were the give-way boat, that makes it cleaner. It can get complex fast when the ROW boat is coming down. They can leave the finishing boats with options that are all bad.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,774
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
The mid-leg start and finish line also adds a complexity that makes many PROs skip setting them, anyone know what it is??
In multi-fleet racing you can have starters and finishers approaching the line at the same time. In the Whidbey Island Race Week regatta they have 10-12 fleets with 4-6 races per day so this is a constant problem.
They overcome this problems very well with one committee boat for start and finish by having one boat and two pins (start pin to port and finish pin to starboard).
For the start you leave the committee boat to starboard and at the finish you leave the committee boat to port. They have separate crews to handle start and finish duties.
Works very well.
 
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Apr 5, 2009
2,774
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
There you go! Sounds like you were the give-way boat, that makes it cleaner. It can get complex fast when the ROW boat is coming down. They can leave the finishing boats with options that are all bad.
We are able to avoid most of that problem by a standard rule that the start/finish line is an obstruction except for starts and finishes. You get a DSQ if you go through the line on any other leg.