Survey - Sea Trial Issues and Questions

[pumpkinpie]

Hi everyone - Wife here... This is our second survey, two separate boats. The first was a complete can of worms, and we decided to pass on it. We went back to the original boat we first started looking at which was a 2009 Hunter 38 and had a survey and sea trial completed over the past couple days. Ran into some problems and had a few questions for anyone that would like to chime in. It would be appreciated as we have a deposit down, and the bank is all good to go, but I'm a bit hesitant now considering the below...

During the boat being at the dock to power shore both A/C units would shut down flipping a breaker. This was an ongoing thing while at power shore for a couple hours while the boat was being looked over by the surveyor. The seller's reasoning was that it was because it was in a commercial slip where not as much power is supplied, in addition to turning them both on at the same time would cause the breaker to flip.

The windlass was not working either and this was almost first noted by the surveyor. Owner claimed possibly not being used for sometime. It would make the click sound but not engage. Later he stated it would need a relay switch but said we would talk about it on Monday with us. Later that afternoon we spoke via phone, and he said he got it working fiddling with the wires. But we are not 100% sure if this is going to be the fix or if it needs a relay switched as he previously stated.

Prior to leaving the slip for the sea trial, we noticed almost all of the electronics such as wind speed, depth, and autopilot were dead and not working. The main navigation display would come on but would not zero in or do anything else. I have seen all electronics come on a few weeks ago while looking the boat over, but they were not at the time of survey. The seller stated it was likely due to a lightening storm the previous night since it was working the previous afternoon when he went to the boat.

The owner of the boat was not present at this time and we went for the sea trial.. Sails looked brand new.

We returned after the pull out and sea trial but could not figure out why the electronics were still down. After checking fuses, the fuse for the electronics showed it was still good (not blown), but when it was replaced with another fuse, all of the electronics started displaying again, and the main navigation display screen was able to zero.

This actually puzzled the surveyor. The problem is we were back at the dock, paid the surveyor, but still not sure if the electronics are fully working because it wasn't taken back out again to check autopilot, charting, wind speed, depth, etc. The boat had a captain, but he had left too.

The boat looks almost perfect cosmetically, and I mean like brand new, but the issue with the electronics is worrisome. I feel we made a mistake not having the surveyor remain and us going back out and was rushed because a storm was upon us.

We have placed a deposit and the bank is all good to go too, but we are just uncertain and wondering what steps you would take before closing the deal. The owner is anxious to get it sold of course, and the sailboat has been up for sale going on 1 year now. With the electronics going out this could be a simple thing or something more serious.

On a smaller note the surveyor found a 2 inch rip in the Bimini and this is something I didn't even see but he caught it and later texted me a photo. So... this will also need to be fixed. More serious is the a/c going in and out, and all the electronics. I should be getting a full report from the surveyor on a Monday or Tuesday.

What would you do?

 

[jssailem]

You have a couple of ways to go.
You should be happy with your purchase. If you are not you may always wonder about the boat.

1. Choose a dollar amount that you tell the owner is in escrow until the issues can be resolved. This lets you go forward with the purchase and gives you time to get experts in to address the inspection and correction of the AC marine electrics and the electronics systems. As you say it may be nothing or it may be serious. Basing this on you and your spouse not being marine Electrical engineers, so professional help seems like a reasonable way to resolve the issue...
2. Tell the owner to fix it and then go back and inspect the corrections. The owner seems to feel that the problem is not serious. He should be able to prove to you that all is working. Windlass, Marine electronics, and AC units.
3. Walk away and try to find a boat that makes you happy.

 

[Tally Ho]

Maybe you ask to hold some $$ in escrow until you verify that all is well with the electronics / electrical systems.

I bought my boat in the winter, with no way to check out the engine. I asked the seller to hold some $$ in escrow until spring when I could put the boat in the water and check out the engine.

Seller agreed, and I released the escrow once I got the boat in the water and verified everything worked.

Greg

 

[Davidasailor26]

The seller's reasoning was that it was because it was in a commercial slip where not as much power is supplied, in addition to turning them both on at the same time would cause the breaker to flip.

I'm skeptical about that. Which breaker tripped, the one on the boat or on the dock? Also, what are the size of those breakers? The one on the boat should be adequate to power both units simultaneously. Unless there is some kind of serious corrosion or power sag at the dock I don't think that would cause the problem. Is there a volt meter on your panel or some place you can use a volt meter to see the voltage that is getting to the boat? My guess is that there is corrosion or some other trouble with one of the AC units causing it to draw too many amps.

the fuse for the electronics showed it was still good (not blown)

Did you check for continuity with a meter, or just visually inspect? It could look ok visually but still be blown.

still not sure if the electronics are fully working because it wasn't taken back out again to check autopilot, charting, wind speed, depth, etc.

Many of those things you can check reasonably well at the dock. Wind speed, depth, and charted location should all work fine at the dock. The autopilot may also have a mode that allows you to use it to turn the wheel even when the boat isn't moving. The possibility of lightning damage would be worrisome so yes you should try to get that figured out and let the sellers insurance pay to have it fixed if that's really what happened.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

From your description, it’s likely the A/C problem is an electrical issue easily cured. Instruments similarly if they worked intermittently but even a worst case scenario of replacement isn’t a showstopper. Windlass also an electrical problem easily cured.

The big ticket potential expense is a new Bimini. Not surprising for Florida. You can’t “fix” tears and even if you could, it’s going to happen again with old canvas.

None of this is surprising on a boat sitting for sale for a year. The next option will likely have issues too.

 

[quadrille38]

I have the same boat in a 2008 model that we purchased brand new (dealer demo) in 2009.

On the air conditioner I agree with Davidasailor

There are a number of possible explanations and things that need to be checked out
First you say the breaker tripped. The dock breaker or the breakers on the boat?
If it’s the dock breaker what is the amp rating of the breaker. It needs to be at least a 30 amp breaker.

Second it is a common but not really acceptable practice that many people will get a Y splitter that takes the two power inputs on the boat to a single power cord that goes to the dock pedestal. They do this sometimes to save money by not needing two separate power cords. Or because the pedestal may only have one outlet. By using the splitter you are putting the entire load that is designed to run on two separate 30 amp circuits into one 30 amp circuit. It can work but with both air conditioners, an electric water heater, and possibly a microwave, maybe a toaster or more you are in overload territory. The proper way is two separate 30 am cords all the way to two separate outlets on the pedestal.

Also agree with Don on the Bimini. A patch on the Bimini May get you through but the fabric and sun exposure is a big factor. Sunbrella needs to be cleaned regularly and treated periodically and if it hasn’t it’s life will be shorter.
I can’t really opine since here in Michigan our dodger / Bimini is in storage from October to May but if the material on this boat is original to 2009, I’d be willing to bet that 10 years in Florida sun may be nearing its useful life.

 

[BigEasy]

Not so Fast.....
I would have an ABYC certified electrician go over the boat completely, including air conditioner system electrics,
windlass, and electronics before I proceeded with the sale. If the electronics were affected by a NEAR BY lightening strike,
it could cost 15-20 thousand to chase down all the gremlins and have the equipment replaced.
As far as the Bimini is concerned, no big deal. As others have mentioned, the fabric has reached its service life. You should be able to get the Bimini re-skinned for approximately $1000. Surveyors are fairly adept at finding problems; however, most are not electricians, diesel mechanics, air conditioner mechanics, etc. You really need to have a qualified marine electrician troubleshoot your electrical problems and provide an estimate for the repairs. Have the owner do the repairs and get a detailed receipt of labor and parts, proving that they were done by qualified technicians. Alternatively, renegotiate the purchase price downward, to reflect the repair estimates provided by your electrician and have the repairs done by your own techs. Finally, if you are uncomfortable with the potential problems, after the sale, walk away and find another boat. Hope it all works out for you all. Sometimes buying a boat can be stressful and a real challenge.

 

[shemandr]

IF in fact the boat suffered a lightning strike that could be an insurance claim by the current owner. Anyway it's worse than a blown fuse or loose ground connection somewhere. I agree that a marine electronics guy should go over the whole system. You should understand that there won't be a drop in replacement for the existing units. Electronics have advanced a lot in the last ten years and you will have to upgrade most of it. I wouldn't want that bill. Some others might decide to replace the whole system anyway.
I'm betting the breaker shut down is on the dock side. A lot of docks do not have service for all the stuff we want to run.
If you heard a click when engaging the windlass the solenoid is probably working. Look for another problem. Windlass work on a Hunter requires quite a bit of disassembly in the vee berth. I'd guess the wiring, again.

 

[pumpkinpie]

Not so Fast.....
I would have an ABYC certified electrician go over the boat completely, including air conditioner system electrics,
windlass, and electronics before I proceeded with the sale. If the electronics were affected by a NEAR BY lightening strike,
it could cost 15-20 thousand to chase down all the gremlins and have the equipment replaced.
As far as the Bimini is concerned, no big deal. As others have mentioned, the fabric has reached its service life. You should be able to get the Bimini re-skinned for approximately $1000. Surveyors are fairly adept at finding problems; however, most are not electricians, diesel mechanics, air conditioner mechanics, etc. You really need to have a qualified marine electrician troubleshoot your electrical problems and provide an estimate for the repairs. Have the owner do the repairs and get a detailed receipt of labor and parts, proving that they were done by qualified technicians. Alternatively, renegotiate the purchase price downward, to reflect the repair estimates provided by your electrician and have the repairs done by your own techs. Finally, if you are uncomfortable with the potential problems, after the sale, walk away and find another boat. Hope it all works out for you all. Sometimes buying a boat can be stressful and a real challenge.

Thank you all for your responses. You've definitely given us some things to think about and options to consider.

The seller of the boat is a broker who purchased the boat to "flip." He's owned it for a year now and completed much needed maintenance on several basic things (new batteries, engine service, raw water filters, dock lines, etc. etc.) which I do not have listed here. He did tell me in a previous email, however, that he also completed the below.

Replace VHF antenna
Replace chip in MH wind instruments
Tune rig
Replace VHF, remote in cockpit and wire from nav station to cockpit
Replace “electronics brain box”
Replace most of the running rigging

Is this a common thing to replace after 10 years? This boat practically sat unused for nearly a decade due to the declining health of the gentleman that originally owned it and had it docked behind his home.

 

[pumpkinpie]

This is the entire list of things he told me he has done to the boat.

Complete cleaning of interior. This is one of the few things I do myself and touching every item provides for a great survey.
Replace dock lines
Replaced fuel in tank
Complete engine service, Filters, belts, impellers, fluids. Repack stuffing box.
Replace complete raw water filters for the engine and air.
Replace 3 of 3 batteries
Replace engine instrument panel. The engine hour meter in the panel was almost unreadable but we think it said 70 hours. We replaced the entire engine panel in the cockpit. The owners also stated that 70 hours should be very close to correct.
Bottom job, new cutlass, torque keel bolts, Remove name, buff and wax hull
Buff and wax deck & cockpit
Rigging inspection
Replace VHF antenna
Replace chip in MH wind instruments
Tune rig
Replace VHF, remote in cockpit and wire from nav station to cockpit
Replace “electronics brain box”
Replace most of the running rigging
Replace skylight covers
Make hatch cover
Replaced the cockpit shower head and some fittings.
Replaced cockpit overhead speakers
Replace or repair CO2 or smoke detectors
Provide 1st aid kit
Provide flares
Provide 3 cockpit cushions
Inspect A/C and test

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

You already got different perspectives of whether these problems are significant.

What you really need to understand is that any boat older than a few years is going to have issues. The ones identified here are no big deal and quite probably less than many other boats you could look at.

Ask the broker if he will share repair costs. If not, you choose what to do.

 

[pumpkinpie]

Yes, I did, and I do understand every boat will have its own issues, thank you. However, I'd like to know from others more experienced if the seller replacing the "wire from nav station to cockpit" and "electronics brain box" throws up any red flags.

 

[jssailem]

• Replace engine instrument panel. The engine hour meter in the panel was almost unreadable but we think it said 70 hours. We replaced the entire engine panel in the cockpit. The owners also stated that 70 hours should be very close to correct.Replace 3 of 3 batteries
• Replace VHF antenna
• Replace chip in MH wind instruments
• Replace VHF, remote in cockpit and wire from nav station to cockpit
• Replace “electronics brain box”
• Replaced cockpit overhead speakers
• Inspect A/C and test

Based on your statements of problems observed and this list, fiddling with any of the above might have been contributory to the issues you experienced.

It would appear the the "Inspect A/C and test" was not a satisfactory project.

If this is the boat for you. I would have the problems investigated by a professional marine electrician you both accept and have the broker fix the items before you pay the price he wants.

Or you can get and estimate by your professional and hold the funds in escrow (the broker gets the remainder of the funds that you and your bank are paying) which will apply to the repair of the equipment not working.

A good broker will know about this procedure and while not happy will recognize its just normal business.

 

[JRT]

Good advise from those in the know, most of that is just going to be normal age and the fact it sat unused. I would think having the owner/broker get a marine electrician out there to give all the areas of concern a check over would be reasonable. As others have said worst case most of that is not super expensive relative to the boat.

The shore power cable might be crap and if so a nice upgrade is the SMARTPLUG system, it will cost you about $370 in material and replacing the plug on the boat isn't hard to do. My C310 came with this recent upgrade and it is super nice and easy to use.

 

[FastOlson]

Perhaps I am not completely understanding the point to this, but from the thread starter I glean that the electronics might be (for good reason) questionable. The electronics are a decade old, give or take. At this age one would be fortunate if the models installed were still supported by the mgr and continue to function. While it might be normal for these parts to work for 20 years, on average... do not assume that it will happen.

Also, the boat is located where high heat and humidity combine with salt air to degrade Everything on a boat, from the gel coat to the radio. (That's why boats in general are cheap in all the southern latitudes.)

Like any large boat with a lot of systems, you either need to maintain it with (new?) skills and lots of time for learning curves, or by spending butt loads of money on professionals, some of whom know slightly more about it than you do, and charge you $100./hour for their ineptitude.
i.e. there are good reasons why we all become "amateur boat builders" when we maintain our boats, OR we stay within an hour of help from the good folks at VesselAssist / TowBoatUS.

It's not all doom-n-gloom, tho. For instance, if you decide to buy an airplane, you are required, for safety reasons, to have almost every bit of maintenance either performed or signed off by a licensed pro. (Having you bob around the sea when the motor or sails fail you does not endanger the general public like having your plane fall on them out of the sky...)

Aside: Ownership of a large boat, and particularly one from a "lower-tier production builder" with all of the comfortable amenities and utilities of a land dwelling, will involve much learning and rebuilding of systems, and unlike products from the high end builders you will find that a lot of stuff was not installed to make service or replacement convenient as the craft ages. The good news is that, with this product, you do indeed get a "LOT of boat for the money", and may be the feature at the top of one's list.

Best of luck to you, and no matter how enticing that list of completed projects looks from your seller, and it does, get a good survey of boat, engine, and rig. I did that when buying our first large boat and the surveys paid for themselves with $ to spare.
Post up a picture or three when you can.

Edit: not sure what the electronics brain box refers to, but it did get me to thinking about that Mel Brooks movie!! ("Abby Who??!!)

 

[wing15601]

Each a/c system should have its own breaker otherwise when running one unit the breaker will be twice as large as it should be. Will low voltage cause the breaker to trip? Sounds like a nice boat and you’re in a great bargaining position. I would hire a marine electrician to check the systems out. Oh, I’ve seen blown fuses which didn’t look like it.

 

[BrianRobin]

A 10 year old boat is not going to be perfect, negotiate the price down to cover the cost.

 

[CarlN]

I'm confused about the lightening strike. Was the sea trial after the possible strike?

If the lighting strike had done damage, you'd have noticed it on the sea trial. It's not subtle. Lots of things don't work.

Assuming that's OK, I'd go ahead. As you've seen, finding a good boat to buy takes a lot of time. If you pass on this, how many hours of work to find one as good? 100 hours? How many months of missed cruising? 6 months? How many things will be wrong with that boat? There are lots of people who miss the best years of their cruising life because they can't find the perfect boat or the perfect deal. Life is short.

As to your list:

The AC. The air conditioners must have been working while the seller's been trying to sell it for the last year or it would be full of mildew. If you're worried, ask the seller to show you the AC running back at whatever dock it's at now. You don't need a surveyor for this. Cold air should come out.

The electronics - 10 years old? - replace them. If they were 5 years old it would be worth keeping. The price of the boat reflects obsolete electronics. Electronics have gotten much better over the last 10 years. And old stuff doesn't play with new stuff. You'll end up replacing it within a year so easiest to replace it now.

Bimini - more than 7 years in Florida? - better to replace than fix. It only has a year or two left - and it can't look great. Do you really want to own a boat that looks beat?

The windlass - sure, you could walk away over this but it's almost certainly a trivial repair with a connection. When you own a boat you learn that windlass wiring (and switches) is a common problem. Every few years unscrew the connections and clean and grease them. But let's say it's unfixable and you need a new windlass - it will cost $1000 but you'll have a new warranty and it will last as long as you own the boat. One less thing to worry about.

Really, this list is short compared to most and none are a "smoking gun" - like a soft deck, or keel issues, or the wrong color smoke from engine. Almost everyone spends a bunch of money in their first year of owning a boat fixing things the surveyor missed (and they always miss things), doing upgrades, and making it "right" for themselves (and their spouse). Be sure to budget for that whether you get this boat or not.

Don't buy more boat than you can afford to own.