Buying a 40 year old C&C 38

[rma]

Hi all,

I'm looking for advice on closing on my first sailboat. After doing about a year's worth of research on which boat is right for my purposes, reading Don Casey's books, and seeing dozens of boats in my area, I've found one that seems like a good fit.

About me and the plan:
My partner and I are very adventurous and handy. Our plan is to spend a year cruising the Caribbean in about 3 years time. Our budget is tight, our combined annual income is ~$70k, so we are in the market for an older, project boat that we can work on ourselves over the next 3 years.

The boat:
We are ready to make an offer on a 1979 C&C 38. The boat has a suspect Atomic 4 gas inboard and virtually no electronics. However, the rigging is relatively new, has a new Rocna 20kg, with rode and chain and electric windlass. The deck is solid and in really good shape. The hull also appears in great shape. The listing says "C&C smile repaired by previous owners" and I can find no evidence of cracking. Keel bolts are also in good shape. The interior is very clean and has newer upholstery. The wiring was also recently redone. Main sail is in good shape. Needs a new head sail. The boat has been on the hard for the last 4 years. The yard has another Atomic 4 in good condition should we decide to go that route (although I'm leaning toward electric propulsion, although that is not what this thread is about!). The rudder has some signs of water ingress. The boat is now owned by the marina and they are motivated to sell.

My offer:
My plan is to offer $8k in full, conditional upon survey. Basically, if the survey finds any major structural damage in the hull or rig, I'm out. A little water in the hull here and there will not sink the deal for me. We are not planning to cross oceans and will restrict our sailing to weather window opportunities so the boat does not need to be 100% solid. No 40-year boat will be anyway.

My questions:
How should I go about the closing process? Should I just hand the marina a check for the full offer price with the "contingent upon survey" statement? Do I need to draw up some kind of contract for the contingency? Any advice or anecdote from similar experience would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance,

 

[dLj]

You would have to define contingent on what. Explicit wording of what's OK and what is not. Can't be arbitrary.

I personally would never have a gas engine in my sailboat, but like you said, this thread is not for that.

My suggestion is to talk with a marine surveyor and have them help you define your wordings in the contingencies. Talk to them about what you would consider ok or not ok and have them help you with the wording in the contract as to what is acceptable or not.

Also depends a bit on your relationship with the yard. If you have a good relationship with them then you could simply pay for the surveyor and if it gets a clean enough bill of health, pay the yard for the boat, make sure you have all papers.

dj

 

[ggrizzard]

I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that you would be buying the C&C from the yard so that they can recoup their expenses.
Does the yard have a clear title? If not, ask that they go through the process themselves.
After that is resolved, I'd pay a Lawyer $250 or so to draw up a purchase agreement that gives you the "OUT" you're looking for, as well as full disclosure of any work they did and any problems they know about.
All this and an inspection after the boat is in the water cause "You never know".

Then, I suggest you and your partner plan on spending $20k or more on the repairs necessary to pass an insurance survey!

14 years on the hard...
I'd run, quickly, in the other direction. BTW, I own a 40 year old boat!

 

[rma]

Thanks, ggrizzard, for the suggestion. What do you mean by a "clear title"?

Yes, we are planning on the boat needing about $20-25k before it will be in "cruising" condition.
The boat has been on the hard for the past 4 years and has seen some maintenance and cleaning throughout the years. Hasn't been completely neglected.

 

[ggrizzard]

A "Clear Title" is one issued to the buyer of a house, car, boat, etc., that is free from any liens or clouds (questionable claims). When you buy a house, for example, a title insurance company is responsible for doing the background search and defending you, the buyer's interest in the subject property in the future.
In your case, with a boat, there is no title insurance, so you are relying on the state that issued the most recent title to have asked the right questions.
In this case, I suspect the yard has claimed "title" by virtue of some amount of unpaid fees for repairs and/or dockage. In most states there is a process for the lien holder (the yard) to present their evidence and the state to determine the merit of the claim, ultimately awarding title to the yard.
[Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. Any suggestions, opinions or positions presented are those of the author and should not be considered legal advice.]

 

[jssailem]

Yes @ggrizzard has you going in the right direction.
I bought a 41 year old boat from a nonprofit. Offer contingent upon satisfactory survey and sea trial. Important elements for me Sound hull, no leaks, functioning motor. I knew there were no electronics, all rigging to be replaced. Clean but not pretty so needing updating of interior.

Even with care there have been a few surprises.

You’ll spend all of that $20K on making the boat sound for sailing in the Caribbean. Being at sea 10 miles or 1000 miles from land you will want the boat strong and sound when a squall appears on the horizon with 50 knot breezes and 10 foot confused seas.

 

[DArcy]

Have you looked around at boats $20~$25k more than this one? You may be amazed how much you get spending another $20k on a boat. Sweat equity can go a long way in rebuilding a boat but $20k doesn't.
I've been wondering about your original question as well. I've been looking at boats, some of which are through brokers, some are privately listed. I found a Pleasure Craft Sales Contract form online in case I decide on a boat that is listed privately. You can search and see what you find but remember, if it's free it's only worth what you pay for it. A lawyer is probably worth the money. A lawyer may also be able to keep the money in escrow until the conditions in the contract are met.

 

[BigEasy]

[QUOTE="ggrizzard, post: 1540411, member: 41608"A "Clear Title" is one issued to the buyer of a house, car, boat, etc., that is free from any liens or clouds (questionable claims).
In this case, I suspect the yard has claimed "title" by virtue of some amount of unpaid fees for repairs and/or dockage. In most states there is a process for the lien holder (the yard) to present their evidence and the state to determine the merit of the claim, ultimately awarding title to the yard.QUOTE]

Yes, I definitely agree that in your purchase agreement and bill of sale, there definitely needs to be a statement indicating that there is a "clear title, with no liens nor encumbrances." Have the yard do all the necessary work to obtain a title from the state, because it will require quite a bit of time, effort, and some expense to get the title. You will have enough to deal with putting the boat back in working order and do not want to find yourself in the position of not being able to get a title on the boat for registration purposes. The yard should be motivated to obtain a title to finally rid itself of the financial liability of keeping the boat on the property. Definitely a buyer's market on this one

 

[FastOlson]

You must talk to the agency that titles boats in your state (and if different, the state the current registration shows).
They will tell you what paperwork you need.
(Everyone on a good sailing site like this is trying to be helpful, but nothing beats info from the Source. When you talk to them, write down what they say and get names, etc.

FWiW, our little YC just went thru this process, but from a different angle. We had a smaller boat abandoned at our docks and finally, when the owner of record would not respond to calls, emails, or letters we were advised by the state agency to post it for sale and hold an auction. We did those things, and attracted several lookers and one of them bid on it and took it away.

We did accompany the purchaser to the state titling agency and confirm that a new formal title and registration was issued with that new owner paying the fees.

The yard that has physical possession of the boat you want will be in somewhat the same position that we were in. All we wanted (!) was for the boat to leave and that the new owner be legally shown on the new title. Unlike your boat yard, we settled for a lot less than 8K. But then our loss of revenue from having a slip tied up for over a year was probably a fraction as much, too.
When someone just "walks away" from a boat, it creates lots of hassle for the proprietor, wherever they left it.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Regrettably, $20K doesn’t go all that far today in the world of yacht make overs, or much elsewhere for that matter. A C&C 38 is a fairly large, robust yacht to own. As I have a 38 ft myself, I can say it’s at the threshold of being included in what I call the big-boat world. Right near 12 meters LOA. So, things cost a lot.

A suspect Atomic 4? 37 hp? If much less hp the yacht might be relatively slow under power, maybe less than 6.5 knots. Does suspect mean a repower job is in the future? Do you know what parts it might need to get working reliably? Are they available, etc.? Never having owned a sailboat means never having spent much time working on one, I suspect. Canadian built? Is it metric? If so, makes it harder to match up with US hardware suppliers, etc., on some things. I know this from experience. The boat may already be a mosaic of metric/US fastners and other hardware, etc.

Personally, I wouldn’t buy this boat b/c it’s priced low, if it is. Contingencies? Does this mean per your satisfaction? Sometimes this dream succeeds, and sometimes it does not. I’ve seen both.

 

[JRT]

I used a basic Boat US contract with my purchase of a C310 this year. Then we used Boat US Bill of Sale, was all I needed for Alabama.

 

[jssailem]

Boats get liens for previous mechanical work unpaid. In order to know that the boat is clean titled, you need to check with either the state or the Coast Guard.

The cost can run about $300-$500 to get the papers processed and a clear title. The better of the two is a Coast Guard Documentation. It will assure you have a clear title to the boat.

 

[Joe]

I wouldn't consider doing any serious cruising without a strong diesel. To repower your 38 footer will eat up most of your budget. Even if you go electric the cost will be comparable. Also... you'll need more than one new headsail even if you have roller furling. You'll want some kind of downwind sail also.
A suite of electronic gear will include chartplotter, depth and wind instruments, a hard wired radio, AIS, and most likely radar ..... oh... and most importantly an autopilot..... and if you have another 5k you'd want a wind powered steering device..... and then there's the issue of power.... solar panels, wind generator... etc......

So..... if it were me and I had 30-40k ... I'd look for a smaller sailboat (in the 32 to 36ft range) that's already fitted out for cruising by an owner who's kept good records of those upgrades and may even offer to advise you on further projects.

 

[Kings Gambit]

A little water in the hull here and there will not sink the deal for me. We are not planning to cross oceans and will restrict our sailing to weather window opportunities so the boat does not need to be 100% solid. No 40-year boat will be anyway.

Hummm. I wonder how one plans to get from Connecticut to Caribbean islands without “crossing” oceans? I know what this fellow means to say, but one does not have to be somewhere in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean to find weather trouble or otherwise. Boat does not need to be 100% solid b/c we’ll sail only in weather windows? It might take more than 3 yr just to straighten this part out.

 

[jssailem]

very adventurous and handy.

I like this quote...
@rma Those are words that grab a seafaring man and scare the Arrrrggg out of a pirate. Especially when coupled with your profile - "New to sailing. Hoping to cruise in the next 3 years."

Not to dribble any cold water on your 3 year plan... You might try out this plan a little before grabbing the reins of a 38 foot old boat. There are many ways to approach such an idea. Perhaps you and your partner take a sailing class. Join a sailing club, that provides boats. Go on a chartered cruise in a boat that size, or even (when qualified-it is a funny thing the charter companies want to know you can handle a boat before releasing it into your hands) take a bareboat charter.

This is not meant to lessen your dream, only to suggest that you walk a bit before you try running in the freeway with cars.

It is a big ocean and we try to test her in our little boats. Sometimes she gets cranky.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Many, if not most, C&C yachts were billed and built as “Performance” yachts. These are sometimes called racer-cruisers. Typically, they are a bit lacking in cruising attributes in favor of racing ones, etc. Performance is achieved via crew work. That is, the yachts do best when handled by good crew work. Conversely, full-on cruising yachts do not need as much attention from crew to do their best. Good sea-keeping design means the yacht can still take care of herself while the crew is napping or even conked out from exhaustion or sea sickness, etc. Nigel Calder’s books are likely a better general reference for folks planning long cruises.

The modern, late model, yachts generally have more standard features that enable a crew of two to cruise comfortably in the ilk of a racer-cruiser. The Bavaria 38 is a yacht like that. Importantly—below-decks autopilot, powerful Diesel engine, roller-furling/reefing of the headsail, in-line reefing of the mainsail—to identify a few—as Joe pointed out.

 

[Justin_NSA]

Is this the boat you are considering? It looks pretty clean but you have a lot of $$ work ahead of you if it is how you describe it. Especially in the engine area. Learn to blue water sail as you get your boat ready for your dream cruise. It will also help you choose the right equipment for your trip(s).
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/c-c-38-3149056/

 

[Kings Gambit]

Perhaps a better 3-yr plan. Keep working and SAVING. Learn more about sailing and cruising via inexpensive avenues. When ready, buy a boat already in the Caribbean from off one of the charter fleets there if you can, or one that had been in a charter fleet once. Probably won’t get one for $8,000, however. It’ll be worn down some so you can fix that one up. Then, sail your dream. I have friends who did this very thing. Got a 42-ft Beneteau out of the deal. Were there for more than 10 yr. But, they knew what they were doing.

 

[FastOlson]

Some points to consider:
A strong well engineered boat is the first requirement. Most of the C&C line is that.
The early 38 is plenty of boat for cruising. (Forget about the "R" word; all boats become "racing" boats the minute they cross a starting line.)
Everyone posting here believes that their own boat is perfect, at least for their uses... and perhaps everyone else should have one too!
Once you eliminate the bottom layer of cheap production boats, there are a LOT of designs that will cross an ocean. And with some luck, even the cheap ones will get you there and perhaps even home again.
No matter what you sail, you have to prepare it well and avoid storms when able to do so. Thanks to GPS and up to date forecasts and routing, this is actually possible nowadays.
And..... once you find a strong and fast boat, just set a plan and.... Go.
Like these folks:
https://www.sailingcinderella.com/sailing-cinderella-the-boat

C&C, Ericson, Cascade, Sabre, Tartan, Jason, Yamaha, and some others we all can name, for starters... Do not wait too long, or you will end up 'old' and condemned to post daily 'opinions' on sailing sites...

 

[Kings Gambit]

FO: you appear to have missed the context of this discussion in the posts of this morning. Nobody said that a C&C 38 (1979) could not cruise. It was said that the boat was not built and marketed principally as a cruising yacht. Is that not true?
Your advice. Jump in, both feet! Caution to the wind. A boat is a boat is a boat, etc. Have fun! Go for it! Is that it?