Rigging question.

Jun 5, 2019
7
Catalina 30 mki Perth Amboy, NJ
I have 1976 Catalina 30 (tall rig, bowsprit) that I bought few years ago. Its a great boat that I've been sailing while doing some repairs and upgrades (work on Atomic 4 engine, running rigging etc). I think the time has time to replace the old style rigging and I am wondering if anyone may be able to answer couple of questions or may have encountered a similar issues. The rig is really old with old style bottle turnbuckles. Since my mast comes down every fall I was able to inspect the wires every season and I see no issues with them such as corrosion, burs etc. However I can barely tighten both forward lower shrouds to recommended 11% breaking strength. The turnbuckles are turned all the way in and tension barely gets there. One reason why this may be happening is that the mast is raked slightly forward. The mast itself is on old style stiff one that does not show any noticeable bent. I've read some posts which said that some Catalina 30 owners did rake their masts forward to reduce the weather helm. So, first I am curious whether anyone has a boat with a straight mast or one with forward rake like mine. The second question is what would be the best way to replace the rigging for my boat. I understand that the standard approach is to tune the rig and mark turnbuckle position, which can later be used as a guide when making new wires. In my case shall I keep my forward rake or shall I try to tune it first to get new guidelines for the shrouds? I am not a racer, but I am aiming at making my boat comfortable for cruising under varying conditions. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Feb 26, 2004
22,759
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
All Catalinas come with a very good rigging guide in the manauls. They are the same for every single single spreader mast with double lowers they ever made. You should be able to find your manual online or with the C30 guys. If not, look here: http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals

& scroll down to the Mark I owners manual.

Bottle-screw turnbuckles, regardless of how often you inspect them, really have no place on a boat. Anywhere. A friend of mine with a Bahama Islander 24 lost his forestay on SF Bay on a typically windy day and saved his rig by sailing downwind to Berkeley, nowhere near our slips! When I took my C25 in for new standing rigging the next week, when the rigger tried to remove the single backstay bottle swcrew it simply disintegrated.

Looks good simply ain't good enough. You can't see what you can't see.

Please, for your own safety and that of your family and guests, get open body turnbuckles.

Good luck.
 
Jun 5, 2019
7
Catalina 30 mki Perth Amboy, NJ
All Catalinas come with a very good rigging guide in the manauls. They are the same for every single single spreader mast with double lowers they ever made. You should be able to find your manual online or with the C30 guys. If not, look here: http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals

& scroll down to the Mark I owners manual.

Bottle-screw turnbuckles, regardless of how often you inspect them, really have no place on a boat. Anywhere. A friend of mine with a Bahama Islander 24 lost his forestay on SF Bay on a typically windy day and saved his rig by sailing downwind to Berkeley, nowhere near our slips! When I took my C25 in for new standing rigging the next week, when the rigger tried to remove the single backstay bottle swcrew it simply disintegrated.

Looks good simply ain't good enough. You can't see what you can't see.

Please, for your own safety and that of your family and guests, get open body turnbuckles.

Good luck.
Stu, thanks for the comments. I am replacing my rigging and getting new open body turnbuckles is part of the plan. I also looked at C30 manuals before and it says the same thing as the one for C34: mast must be straight. But I do know that lot of racers in our club rake their masts aft. So, I am curious whats the common wisdom for C30, keep it straight or rake aft or slightly forward as on my boat.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,759
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
But I do know that lot of racers in our club rake their masts aft. So, I am curious whats the common wisdom for C30, keep it straight or rake aft or slightly forward as on my boat.
In all the years I raced (1998-2006) I never heard any talk about raking from the more than a dozen regulars who participated and more than two dozen different boats over the years. We raced one design C34s - only - all year long on SF Bay.
Maybe it's just "racer talk" to get into your head. :):):)
I'd be interested in the details or a "How To" but I just don't know personally.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I am curious whats the common wisdom for C30, keep it straight or rake aft or slightly forward as on my boat.
How does she sail? Does she have a lee helm on a broad reach? Do you use different sized headsails and notice the effects of moving your center of effort forward or aft?
Set the rake according to your experiences with your boat. If your experiences are limited, don't be shy about experimenting. It is not a hard- fast rule. You'll learn important sailing skills and get the tuning you want in the end.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Jun 5, 2019
7
Catalina 30 mki Perth Amboy, NJ
How does she sail? Does she have a lee helm on a broad reach? Do you use different sized headsails and notice the effects of moving your center of effort forward or aft?
Set the rake according to your experiences with your boat. If your experiences are limited, don't be shy about experimenting. It is not a hard- fast rule. You'll learn important sailing skills and get the tuning you want in the end.

-Will (Dragonfly)
Actually she sails pretty well. It does not have a lee helm on a broad reach. If anything she does have a weather helm even when beam reaching. I will experiment with rolling my jib to see the effect of moving the center of effort. To be honest aside from having somewhat loose forward lower shrouds (which I could replace with ones I could tighten to proper tension) I have no issues with sailing. It does bother me somewhat that more than once it was mentioned that my mast is not straight. It is visible when one looks carefully, but its not too much off. Someone suggested that I could adjust my headstay to make mast more straight, but I am not sure how much range I have there. I am leaning toward the following plan:
1. Make adjustments to my current rig to make the mast more straight. I think that can be done by making headstay a bit longer and tightening the backstay.
2. See if that changes the tension with forward lower shrouds
3. Use that as guidelines for replacing the standard rigging and moving on.
Does that sound as a sensible plan?
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Actually she sails pretty well. It does not have a lee helm on a broad reach. If anything she does have a weather helm even when beam reaching. I will experiment with rolling my jib to see the effect of moving the center of effort. To be honest aside from having somewhat loose forward lower shrouds (which I could replace with ones I could tighten to proper tension) I have no issues with sailing. It does bother me somewhat that more than once it was mentioned that my mast is not straight. It is visible when one looks carefully, but its not too much off. Someone suggested that I could adjust my headstay to make mast more straight, but I am not sure how much range I have there. I am leaning toward the following plan:
1. Make adjustments to my current rig to make the mast more straight. I think that can be done by making headstay a bit longer and tightening the backstay.
2. See if that changes the tension with forward lower shrouds
3. Use that as guidelines for replacing the standard rigging and moving on.
Does that sound as a sensible plan?
Actually, it sounds like you've been listening to a lot of idle hearsay without actually doing any serious research,,,,
So first of all.... read the tuning guide that is part of every Catalina owner's manual,,
Second.... go to any spar maker's website and read the tuning guides available there.. Selden, Forespar etc.
Next... peruse the various sail maker sites for mast tuning...
Or... just take the most logical step and google : "masthead rig tuning guide"
One of my favorites is on the C&C yachts owners website at www.cncphotoalbum.com
here's another: https://uk.boats.com/how-to/how-to-tune-the-rig-on-your-yacht/
NO FORWARD (negative) RAKE, please.
 
Jun 5, 2019
7
Catalina 30 mki Perth Amboy, NJ
Actually, it sounds like you've been listening to a lot of idle hearsay without actually doing any serious research,,,,
So first of all.... read the tuning guide that is part of every Catalina owner's manual,,
Second.... go to any spar maker's website and read the tuning guides available there.. Selden, Forespar etc.
Next... peruse the various sail maker sites for mast tuning...
Or... just take the most logical step and google : "masthead rig tuning guide"
One of my favorites is on the C&C yachts owners website at www.cncphotoalbum.com
here's another: https://uk.boats.com/how-to/how-to-tune-the-rig-on-your-yacht/
NO FORWARD (negative) RAKE, please.
Joe, thank you for your comment. I think I may not have been clear about what information I was trying to find. I did read a bunch of rig tuning guides including Selden, North Sail etc. I've been tuning my rig every year since I step off my mast at the end of every season. I've been using tension gauge last couple of years and did the tuning under sail before that. I did not however try to adjust my headstay before. I think I have a very slight forward rake based on visual inspection. I need to find a calm day to check my rake with a halyard. My boat is on the mooring and even on calm day its not easy to do accurately. As I've said my mast is old, heavy and very rigid. I think what some people I talked to confused mast rake with mast pre-bent. At this point I am trying to answer the following two questions:

1. I strongly believe that things happen for a reason. So, in case of my mast's slight fore rake there are two possibilities. One, is that one of previous owners or riggers did it on purpose. Based on comments here and another forum as well as my own reading this does not seem to be needed. Second, option is that there is some defect. I looked into compression post as one of possibilities, but did not find any issues. Obviously old wire stretching can play into this. May be someone else would have some other suggestions that I would happy to test.

2. Since I am strong believer in DIY work I am trying to determine the best course of action to replace my rigging. If the rig could be tuned correctly the rest would be easy. I could just mark turnbuckle positions, label wires and send them to Catalina Direct. But how do I deal with the case when the wire lengths are bit off? As, for example, the mast is not straight. One suggestion that I got is going with the specs from the C30 manual for the length of stays and shrouds. But given that my boat is 40+ years old and who knows what modifications were done over that time this may not be precise enough. So, I am curious to hear from someone who was in a similar situation. It is possible that I may end throwing the towel and hiring a rigger to replace my rig. But, I would rather do it myself.

Many thanks to all you guys who posted the comments and offered suggestions.
 
May 7, 2011
281
C - 30 # 3573 Lake NormanNC formerly Bflo NY
WJ

I may be wrong on this but I haven’t seen a C30 mast that isn’t anything but a beast of a section modulus and ain’t gonna bend like you expect.

Yes you may have some stretch, and yes, you never know what a PO has done. Which is why as I said, MEASURE all yours so you have a starting point. Otherwise it’s just jaw flapping. Then you’ll know whether to order a stock set of wire or need something custom. Get the mast plumb and start from there. All else is pre worry about, “what if” and is wasted effort.

Do your homework also and check prices/service - there’s other sources for wire sets.
Good luck and let us know what you find out.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
You'll have to reset your forestay/backstay to set the pre bend or rake. On a C 30 it's just 3 or 4 inches using the plumb bob method because the mast like a telephone pole.
 
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Oct 25, 2015
31
Catalina 22 Cave Run Lake ky
In 50 years of sailing I have never seen a boat that went to weather well with proper head stay sag and a forward rack. The added force required to get a straight head stay is much greater with a forward rack. An aft rack help straighten the head stay and loads the forces on the mast in the directions that the designer wanted them to act.
Boats designed in the 1900's always had aft rack to help balance the boat and get proper sail shape going upwind. Forward rack and forward bend is only helpful downwind when you want head stay sag and to move the mast forces forward for better speed and control.
In my Catalina 22 I have 2" of mast rake and can add up to 4" of mast bend when I an racing in heavy air. In light air I use only as much back stay as is required to stop the rig from moving around.
I have put aft bend in my dad's 30 in the past and found that it made little difference as as long as we had 4" of aft rack and mast the was as straight as we could get it all the time.

By the way if you have loaded the stern of the boat with a lot of junk and the stern is low in the water it will seem as if you have more rack then you do. Rack needs to be measured when the boat is floating close to the designed waterline and not when the stern is down because of the second anchor and the camping gear.

I recommend you measure what you have, remove the boom, loosen All shroud and stays, start from the scratch. A light breeze on the beam has little effect on you rack measurement so you start with that measurement. Keep measuring and making notes and be carefully to measure the same thing to the same point.
 
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Jul 6, 2013
221
Catalina 30TR, Atomic 4 2480 Milwaukee
Thanks all for the advise. I will report back on the progress of this project.
This post is a little old, so you may have found your answer already.
The C30 manual says no rake and no bend, checked when on a tack, in your typical conditions.
On my ‘82TR, I don’t have enough forestay adjustment even to get to forward rake. And I can’t get enough tension on the backstay to induce a bend.
 
Jun 5, 2019
7
Catalina 30 mki Perth Amboy, NJ
I finally had a good day with no winds and wake to check on my mast rake. Turned out its pretty much straight give or take. The mast does not bend, which I think creates optical illusion in comparison to more modern boats that all have a noticeable bend. Will change all the shrouds in off season to get correct tensions to get this monkey off my back. Thanks again for all the suggestions.