My new saildrive
- Thread starter Mark Maulden
- Start date
So, yesterday, I wrote the Italians directly. I had a response around midnight last night.They stated this not a band aid fix and it exists on a drawing. They have seen this happen on several different transmission types on occasion. They gave assurances that it will not impact any operating condition in the future. So, I accepted their statements knowing this is fully documented by myself, Beta, and Twin Disc. I now have about six hrs on it with no leakage. Would be interesting to substitute the breather extension for a clear tube and see how high it gets..probably won’t do it though. I did ask them what would happen if I had to plug the breather in case it starts leaking...
Prepping the boat for a yacht club cruise to Sucia today. Happened to look into the engine compartment and noticed some black particulate on the saildrive. Wiped it up and started the engine. Ran it up to 1500 -2000 rpm and it started puking ATF out the breather again after approx 10 min. I throttled down and went into fwd gear and throttled up to about 1200 rpm and it seems to be OK. I didn't go higher as I'm not at the helm at the dock. Hmmm...I think most the times in the last year, we have been at a dock with power. Due to "passengers"...I think every time it leaks, it is when running in neutral at the dock for 5-10min and we are off dock before that. I have not anchored and tried to charge batteries yet..However, this ATF leaking is not acceptable. I sent Beta West, Beta UK, and the Italians a very pointed email saying I wanted a Volvo 130S on a plane in next few days. Enough of this crap. I could wait another 2 hrs from now and see what reply the Italians have. Probably not. My check was made out to Beta. They need to solve this.
Mark,
I worked for an American subsidiary of an Italian company for 10 years and your story gave me flash backs. Keep pressing them. Their national pride is at stake as much as their money so they will deny, blame and finger point as long as possible. Also, it it appears it is accepted business practice for them to lie to each other so it takes a while for the solution to coalesce to the surface. Still, some great people. Honestly, they don't know what the problem is. Since you have given every opportunity, cut and run. If necessary, they understand lawyers.
Good luck and keep your chin up.
Dennis
I worked for an American subsidiary of an Italian company for 10 years and your story gave me flash backs. Keep pressing them. Their national pride is at stake as much as their money so they will deny, blame and finger point as long as possible. Also, it it appears it is accepted business practice for them to lie to each other so it takes a while for the solution to coalesce to the surface. Still, some great people. Honestly, they don't know what the problem is. Since you have given every opportunity, cut and run. If necessary, they understand lawyers.
Good luck and keep your chin up.
Dennis
Mark, I'll bet the Italians are waiting for Beta Marine to say something and Beta Marine is waiting for the Italians to say something.
Classic stall, pray that the pesky American goes away. Stay in there. First person to say something in this type of business poker usually pays.
Good luck my friend.
Classic stall, pray that the pesky American goes away. Stay in there. First person to say something in this type of business poker usually pays.
Good luck my friend.
Seems like a believable take on the situation. And yet.... this is a cascading thread of responsibility and liability.
1- Tranmission is constructed in Italy.
2-Shipped to and assembled at the Beta factory in the UK, where it gets mated to a Kubota short block. (Shotgun marriage?)
3-Stocked and inspected again after arrival at the US distributor
4- Stocked by a regional distributor in the US
5- Shipped to the dealer in a destination city or area
6-picked up by retail purchaser
7-un-crated and installed by purchaser or his mechanic
My guesses might have a step too many or too few... but last year I was at steps 6 and 7, and my dealer gently fork-lifted the pallet with the complete engine and trans. into the bed of my truck. From there I drove it to my installer's shop for final measurement and then I drove it to our marina where we used a portable engine crane to transfer it to a sturdy cart. When beside our boat we finally loosened the bolts on the mounts and used our boom and halyard to lift it aboard our boat and lower it carefully into the cabin and onto the bed logs.
Since no one (AFAIK) has implied that the OP mishandled the engine package, then either.... someone somehow whacked the transmission part while in transit... or... it was missed by a QC person when constructed at the factory.
I am surprised by how far this whole situation has deteriorated.
By comparison, a friend of mine did an install of a new Betamarine powertrain like mine a couple of years ago, and reverse gear failed as he tried to back the just-launched boat out of the slings. (Yikes)
Immediately, as in "one phone call" by his mechanic, a new transmission was approved by the US distributor and cross-shipped here, and I used a club work boat to tow him over to his slip. The new trans was installed at the slip in a few days and all labor was reimbursed by Betamarine.
That rapid response to a warranty situation was just one more reason that we chose to install a new Beta last year.
So, please do keep us all "in the loop" on this.
Best of Luck to you!
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Received an email with two “offers”.
1)We reimburse the cost of the saildrive , pay for the leg to be removed, so that you can then choose and purchase an alternative leg. Once you have made your choice let us know and we will supply the parts necessary to convert the engine, and we will get the leg fitted and reinstalled.
2)We reimburse the complete cost of the engine/saildrive unit, and pay for the removal, and any costs you have incurred during the original installation.
1)We reimburse the cost of the saildrive , pay for the leg to be removed, so that you can then choose and purchase an alternative leg. Once you have made your choice let us know and we will supply the parts necessary to convert the engine, and we will get the leg fitted and reinstalled.
2)We reimburse the complete cost of the engine/saildrive unit, and pay for the removal, and any costs you have incurred during the original installation.
Well in my mind, I paid for a system. Everything from the “fan belt” to the prop zinc. The “system” needs to work. If a component fails they need to make it right. They tried with another saildrive that didn’t work either. they (Beta) needs to make it right with another saildrive mfgr. BTW, they admitted they have had problems with this saildrive but have always had resolutions. I’m still thinking about this and need to get some numbers. I do not want to go route 2 as the engine itself is great. I think the Volvo saildrive is probably more expensive and they know that. This might cost me a couple boat bucks but we’ll see. I’ll start getting numbers on Monday.
Talked to Beta West today. Since I bought an engine/saildrive pkg, I don’t know how much the saildrive alone costs. I also asked them if they could get a Volvo 130s and they are looking into it. I also asked that if we had to go this route, if I could have the Volvo at their cost and they agreed to do it. I did acquiesce and agreed that I would perform the first oil change on the (new) Italian saildrive and fill it to the bottom mark since Twin Disc says it would work at that level. It would also get rid of the lithium grease used during assembly. So, the bargaining process commences. We’ll see what the numbers are..In actuality, I would like to see this saildrive work. It is a very smooth saildrive..This issue is present only in neutral. Sometimes at idle and sometimes up around 1500 rpm. Never had an issue underway..
Mark... Compromise is a natural thing, but you need to keep aware, that blowing ATF out into the boat is not normal. It will not be considered normal should you have to part with your baot for another.
Reminds me of the story about the guy and the new suit. This business man, Joe, wanted a new suit. He went to a new tailor in town and was fitted. Told to come back in a week and the suit would be ready.
So One week later Joe enters the shop and on the hanger is his new suit. So excited He grabs it and starts putting in on. He looks in the mirror and is both excited and a bit uncomfortable. It looks like one of the arms is a little longer than the other. The tailor seeing his concern steps over. They talk about the problem and the tailor says “It really is ok. Lets just tuck it up a little under your arm and if you hold your arm close to your body no one will notice.” Sure enough he looks in the mirror WOW... But as he steps back it appears that the left leg drapes a bit more then the right on his shoes... The tailor steps forward and says “your worried about the left leg aren’t you.” “Yes” he says... “No problem if we give it a little tuck here and you hold your legs together at the knees it all goes away...” Sure enough it works. Just as the business man is about to step outside he notices the right lapel.. It is a bit, just a bit lower than the left one... “No problem” says the tailor. “Here you go. Let me stretch it ever so little and you can kind of hug it under you chin. Yes like that.” Wow Wow Wow... The suit looked great and fit like a glove. He give the Tailor the money and proudly walks out on to the street. Everyone admires the suit... He walks proudly down the Main Street. Two of his friend walk by and smile. After they past the one says to the other. “Was that Joe? Yes it was. New suit? Yes I think it was. Man oh man that was some suit.. You can say that again. But I had no idea that Joe had suffered such a crippling injury in that car crash. I thought he said it was just a fender bender.”
If you are going to have a mess it is better that the sail drive stops working than to drop a little oily mess when ever you slow down or idle.
Reminds me of the story about the guy and the new suit. This business man, Joe, wanted a new suit. He went to a new tailor in town and was fitted. Told to come back in a week and the suit would be ready.
So One week later Joe enters the shop and on the hanger is his new suit. So excited He grabs it and starts putting in on. He looks in the mirror and is both excited and a bit uncomfortable. It looks like one of the arms is a little longer than the other. The tailor seeing his concern steps over. They talk about the problem and the tailor says “It really is ok. Lets just tuck it up a little under your arm and if you hold your arm close to your body no one will notice.” Sure enough he looks in the mirror WOW... But as he steps back it appears that the left leg drapes a bit more then the right on his shoes... The tailor steps forward and says “your worried about the left leg aren’t you.” “Yes” he says... “No problem if we give it a little tuck here and you hold your legs together at the knees it all goes away...” Sure enough it works. Just as the business man is about to step outside he notices the right lapel.. It is a bit, just a bit lower than the left one... “No problem” says the tailor. “Here you go. Let me stretch it ever so little and you can kind of hug it under you chin. Yes like that.” Wow Wow Wow... The suit looked great and fit like a glove. He give the Tailor the money and proudly walks out on to the street. Everyone admires the suit... He walks proudly down the Main Street. Two of his friend walk by and smile. After they past the one says to the other. “Was that Joe? Yes it was. New suit? Yes I think it was. Man oh man that was some suit.. You can say that again. But I had no idea that Joe had suffered such a crippling injury in that car crash. I thought he said it was just a fender bender.”
If you are going to have a mess it is better that the sail drive stops working than to drop a little oily mess when ever you slow down or idle.
So, I did the oil change..No difference. Once I hit about 1800 rpm, ATF started gushing out. This is in neutral at the dock. It does work under way..It probably would have happened at some slower speed but I’m not going to get that curve. I specified I wanted a Volvo 130S saildrive and I'm finding out that both Volvo and Yanmar are rebranded ZF saildrives. (My own research). I now know what a ZF costs retail (a lot less than Volvo) and I’m still waiting for some response from Beta. It is now almost 7:00 am in Italy and I will give them that day to come up with something from my last email of last night. I did reject Beta’s two offers stated several posts ago. I paid for a system from the alternator belt to the prop zinc. One link in that chain is having problems and Beta needs to own up to it. They can subrogate back to the Italians for compensation..I’m leaving end of this month for a cycling trip in Europe and I would sure like this resolved before then as we’re supposed to be sailing rest of the summer.
So I called Beta Marine West and starting raising a little hell. I was told the owner wanted to talk to me and we went through a lot of stuff. He went through all my previous emails and pics. One pic I had was of the ATF used. He noticed that the Dexron III had some suffixes behind it on the label in the fine print and the drive states just Dexron III. An “aha” moment. I changed oil to just Dexron III on Thursday and made two separate 1/2 runs with no leakage. Things were looking up until the test on Friday which failed. There is only one thing left to try. Normally, engine raw water is drawn through the saildrive and then to the strainer. Before I bought this pkg, I asked if I could take raw water from a thru hull and cap off the saildrive and the answer was yes. From multiple sources..So, our last ditch effort is to reconfigure to get raw water from the saildrive. While floating..This could be interesting!
Sunday, I switched the raw water from the thru hull to the saildrive. Interesting that a lot more water moves through the system now. I’ve made four 1/2 runs at 2000 rpm and no issues. Called Beta West and relayed my results. He said an email arrived earlier today that Twin Disc had another saildrive to ship that they had run in their facility for 5 hrs. We don’t know if they had water going through it or what speed they ran it at..At this time we’re just going to use the current one and monitor it. I was asked to submit my time spent over the last 1.5 years and cost of materials. Hopefully, this is all going to come to closure.