Put my 170 together today. Had a problem getting the sail up.

Sep 5, 2018
214
Hunter 170 Northfield, NJ
So I put the 170 together in my yard.

Have some better idea on how things go together.

So got the sail on and was raising it. I put sailkote on the mast channel. This time the sail was smooth all the way up until about 6 to 8" from the top and then it was real hard. I never got it fully up. The video I took makes it appear that maybe the third slug down is getting caught up.
I took the mast off and slid the top slug up all the way and it is free traveling.
Any suggestions for troubleshooting? I am thinking I might have to put the sail on the mast supported by tables and see what it does. I did not have time and people to try that today.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
3rd slug you say. The main I have has a full batten on the third slug. Maybe it has to do with that. Usually, my first slug will go up crooked, but then usually corrects itself on the way up.

Any "unit" test you do wont be valid unless the mast is upright and gravity is pulling the main down.

Can you post the video?

Try raising the main without placing the boom clew in. I bet your boom is too low (adjust the vang, outhaul, topping lift)
 
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Kermit

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Jul 31, 2010
5,657
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
That usually happens to me when the reefing line is wrapped funny. (And before y’all jump all over me about how that shouldn’t ever happen just remember that I know it’s not set up correctly.)
 
Sep 5, 2018
214
Hunter 170 Northfield, NJ
I have made a YouTube Channel. I put up a poorly edited video (I am learning as I go here) of us setting up the boat in the yard.
It is kind of long and boring with no comments so skipping around might be smart. Close to the end I walk around the boat with the camera for a closer look.
Folding and unfolding the sail is one of many things I need to figure out.
So those with experience please be gentle and suggest how might better do things.
Thanks,

 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Nice job. Those sails look brand new.

Your son is punking you by leaning on the boom :0. just kidding...

note how tight the leech was.

Outhaul: Place the clew slug in the boom track and move it a reasonable distance back...but do not rig it to outhaul until you have the maisail up. If you do rig it, keep it very loose.

When you reef, same thing, ridiculously loose until main is at the correct height.

Vang: nice it looks loose entire time.

Mainsheet: Looks like it could have been looser.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
As Bobbyfun noted, the main sheet appears looks like it Ian too tight. It pulls the end of the boom down, which pulls the clew down, so the luff can’t be tightened. Outhaul, vang, reef lines and mainsheet must all be slack to fully raise the mainsail

Most owners of trailerable sailboats store the mainsail attached to the boom for convenience. You can either roll it or flake it, then tie it to the boom for storage.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Most owners of trailerable sailboats store the mainsail attached to the boom for convenience. You can either roll it or flake it, then tie it to the boom for storage.
I have tried several variations of this, especially after watching the flying scot club wrap it up for the day. They have a slick method of hanging the mainsail rolled up beautifully under the boom. They then have a cover over the entire boat, including the boom.

Ii you leave the boat mast up at the club the main can be left covered on the boom, but this is asking for a shitload of trouble. The issue may be local but our birds love hanging out on the soft cushy sail covers. When they take off they shit all over the cover and the splatter goes all over the seats, decking, and rails. Better to pull main off, and just rest the boom on the floor, still connected to vang and sheets. No more bird turds or windage of boom while unattended.

The boom is mid-sheeted, so we cant roll boom. Youed have to disconnect the vang and upper mainsheet purchase. In addition, if trailering the boom under the mast, its nice to use the mainsheet as part of the tiedown.

it be aweseome to leave main on but its hard to find the best way. Id love to see more trailer set ups thst work.
 

jwing

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Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
In addition to all the observations made so far, I see:
  • On my boat, raising the main is easier when the topping lift holds the boom up. I do not release the topping lift until the sail is all the way up.
  • At 17:17, the sail seems excessively curved at the upper batten, especially for a windless situation. I cannot raise the sail on my boat if it is that far away from being straight behind the mast. Maybe the batten is set too tight. Try removing it and see what happens.
  • Away from sail raising, but back to the topping lift:
    • Your topping lift will give you trouble when you are sailing. It will catch the roach and not allow the sail to move to it's best location. If a batten happens to get snagged, then your woes could get serious. Make sure that you have a way to free your topping lift and bring it forward to the mast where it will not interfere with the sail. Don't forget to reattach it to the boom before you lower the sail.
    • On some boats, including mine, the topping lift is far enough aft so that it will not interfere with the sail. My topping lift is adjustable. When the wind dies down to a whisper, I pull the boom up a bit to induce more of a belly shape in the sail.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,041
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
You might find out a little more about how the boat is rigged. It is a fractional rig and appears to be somewhat performance oriented. You have upper and lower shrouds, but no backstay. This boat looks to me like it can be adjusted for mast bend. If the bend in the mast does not match the way the sail is cut for curve in the luff, you could have problems raising the mainsail correctly. Contrary to earlier comment, the vang looks tight to me. When the vang is tightened, not only does it draw the clew down, but it causes bend in a thin mast section like yours. The vang tension causes the boom to compress against the mast, causing the mast to bow. Be sure that the vang is completely off (loosened)

I don't know who last adjusted your shrouds, but they could be causing excessive mast bend, too. Or the mast might not have enough bend. :confused::confused: I can't tell from the video AND I don't know the boat. But, I think that you may need to raise the sail with the mast adjusted in a neutral position, where the mast bend matches the luff of the sail (perhaps the mast needs to be straight, I don't know). The point is, the mast bend is adjustable, I think, but adjustments should be made on the water, adapted to the conditions, and with the sail already raised.

My other thought is that perhaps your halyard has a splice that thickens the rope and doesn't allow it to pass though the sheave properly. But that isn't likely because I think it would be evident to you. But also check the tightness of the batten. I can't see where that would matter very much though. It might make it a little stiff to raise the sail, but it shouldn't affect the ability to raise the sail properly.

In my opinion, on a small boat with small sails, I don't see how the topping lift is adjusted matters. I know that on my boat, which is significantly larger than the sail on yours, it doesn't matter if the TL is slack or tightened to raise the boom slightly. The sail just isn't heavy enough to affect raising it properly. However, the mainsheet and the vang have to be off (loosened) and the reefing lines loosened as well ( @Kermit , I have fouled my attempt to raise the main with the furling line in the wrong position more times than I can count!).

I would take a look at the mast bend to make sure it matches the luff curve when raising the sail. The boom is fixed so I doubt that the boom height has anything to do with the difficulty. I think it has more to do with mast bend. Can you see if there is bend in the mast or not?
 

jwing

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Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
I re-watched the video because my first impression was that both vang and mainsheet were loose. On second viewing:
  • The vang is plenty loose until Mr Shorefun had given up trying to raise the sail and attempted to tension the luff by pulling the boom down with the vang (8:05). No further attempts were made at adjusting the halyard. Vang tension was not the culprit in this instance.
  • The mainsheet started out plenty loose, too. It got even looser when Shorefun lowered the topping lift. It would've been fine had he left it at that. However, at 4:06, he tightens the mainsheet, probably in an attempt to keep the boom from swinging while he worked on the clew. I missed that in my first viewing. He does not release the mainsheet before raising the sail and at 6:09 he pulls hard on the halyard. One can see the resulting increase in tension on the mainsheet. A further attempt at 6:41 yields the same result. Tensioning the vang at 8:05 resulted in taking tension off the mainsheet. The bit of slack was evident in the rest of the video and further distracted me from the cause of the problem.
    • I've made that mistake more than once. It usually is not a result of me cleating the mainsheet, but happens when the mainsheet gets fouled and can't pass through the cleat. It is one of the reasons that I use the topping lift to hold the boom up higher than the normal position while raising the sail. That way, I know that nothing is holding the boom below the level it will be when the sail has been properly raised.
 
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Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Saw the whole video. That Mainsheet and outhaul is the issue.

Halfway through you crank down on the vang. It does nothing. Normally, when you do that the boom will lower and the leech will go straight, like a forestay, thats what a vang really does, is tighen the leech so your mainsheet doesnt have to. You already had a very tight leech.

Your shrouds are OK. It was suggested to verify the mast is straight. I could tell just by watching the jib bounce around you had standard tension. I bet you can barely get that jib pin in, no? Do not try to put mast bend in on purpose.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Your topping lift will give you trouble when you are sailing.
I wondered if i should disconnect the topping lift. It affects my OCD to see it flopping around like toilet paperstuck to ashoe while bobbing over waves.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
I would take a look at the mast bend to make sure it matches the luff curve when raising the sail. The boom is fixed so I doubt that the boom height has anything to do with the difficulty. I think it has more to do with mast bend. Can you see if there is bend in the mast or not?
While it's remotely possible that extremely excessive prebend in the mast could cause a problem during main sail hoisting, it's highly unlikely. The mast bend looks pretty average in the video.

I'm a retired sailmaker. I've sold a few mains for the Hunter 170, and measured the mast bend. I really can't imagine there could be such a huge mismatch between the mast bend and the luff curve, unless the mainsail were a very weird homemade mainsail with a hollow or straight luff. There is always more curve in the sail's luff than there is prebend in the mast.

Several times a year, some customer of mine with a new mainsail calls me in a panic, because the mainsail wouldn't go up high enough to tighten the luff. It's ALWAYS been solved by slacking the mainsheet, vang, and/or reefing lines.

One other thing would be that the slides are catching on something in the mast track, up near the top, or that the halyard shackle splice or knot is preventing the halyard from going up high enough.

Judy B
Retired Sailmaker
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,041
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Well, I'll admit that all the talk about tension or slack on the mainsheet and tension or slack on the vang is inconclusive because it is very slack when he raises the sail. Basically, I don't think that the mainsheet, vang and topping lift matter whatsoever in this instance. Besides, he fiddled with all of those control lines without any affect.

It does look like there is too much bend in the mast, the forestay is too tight, and the batten at the third slug is too tight. Here's why. For most of the video, we see just a little bit above the boom, but there seems to be an unusual gap between the sail track and the luff. Finally, at 17:17 we can clearly see a significant gap, except at the batten, which is excessively curved. That batten is very tight to the sail track (the batten is pushing into the track). Then the gap opens up again significantly. I think it might help somewhat if the tack is fastened a little closer to the mast. It looks like it might be pulled out slightly. Some goosenecks have different settings for the tack (I know mine does and I tend to fasten the tack as tightly to the mast as I can).

Also, there is way too much wrinkle in the jib. It looks like the headstay is tight and not allowing any curve in the jib luff, which is how the jib is normally cut. I'm going to suggest that the headstay and the upper shrouds (the hounds seem to be at the same elevation as the head stay) are over-tightened.

I'd start by removing the batten to first see if that allows the mainsail to be raised. Then perhaps adjust the batten tension and see what happens. Then, I would relax the headstay and shrouds to see how it affects the mast. There is something that is causing excessive tension and friction in the sail slugs as the sail is raised, particularly as that slug with the batten approaches the upper hounds.

The sail is small and the rig is very light. There shouldn't need to be so much focus on all of the control lines to raise this light sail. It should raise very easily, with little friction regardless of the control lines. I know that they have very little affect on my boat because the mast is a straight pole. This mast is a small section and probably very bendy. I'd bet that with the right adjustment, the mast will match the luff and there should be no problem raising the sail. But right now, it looks like the slugs are trying to be yanked out of the sail track and they are hung up by friction.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,041
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
The mast bend looks pretty average in the video.

I'm a retired sailmaker. I've sold a few mains for the Hunter 170, and measured the mast bend. I really can't imagine there could be such a huge mismatch between the mast bend and the luff curve, unless the mainsail were a very weird homemade mainsail with a hollow or straight luff. There is always more curve in the sail's luff than there is prebend in the mast.

Judy B
Retired Sailmaker

Well, we really can't see the mast at all until the very end of the video, and then it is at an angle where it is virtually impossible to tell. But like I said above, at 17:17 it doesn't look average at all. The slugs look like they are being pulled out of the sail track while the slug with the batten is pushed way in. It looks like that is where the friction is most extreme. There is a big gap everywhere except at the batten. It should look relaxed all the way up, but it doesn't.

I agree that the mast bend should not cause difficulty under normal conditions, and I also agree that there should normally be a little more curve in the sail luff than there is in the mast. But that mast is out of whack from what it looks like to me, and if it is not the batten that is causing excessive friction, then it would have to be the mast, which needs adjustment with the shrouds. He fiddled with the control lines and they were completely slack when he started. The control lines don't really look like an issue to me.
 
Sep 5, 2018
214
Hunter 170 Northfield, NJ
I am reading an slowly processing all the comments. Looks like Saturday I might be able to try again and see what happens.

After I brought the mast down I took the sail and ran one of the slugs along the groove. There were no places were it caught up.

I have warn anyone trying to figure out the mast bend from the video. I used a Gopro and I know it distorts lines especially at the edges.

As for the line tension. The forestay is snug and needs a slight extra push to make the hole. But not so much my 14 year old can't do it. The shrouds are set like the picture in the manual except one upper shroud is one hole tighter. I intend on setting that one back to like the book.

As for the vang and mainsheet. I never really set them very tight, mostly just playing with the lines to see what happens. I did set the outhaul fairly tight before I lifted the sail which would play into Bobby's comments. Also the top batten sticks out some.

I was also surprised to find I have a leach adjustment. Quite frankly I had no idea they existed until like a week ago watching some other sailing youtube video.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Most people don't put a whole lot of tension on those stays. In some of the Hunter sales literature, you can even see the leeward shroud sagging a bit. I like to have them snug when sailing, but I don't leave them under a lot of tension when the boat sits. I have seen enough of those boats with significant cracks around the chain plates to make me want to ease off the tension during prolonged storage.

I don't use enough tension to put any appreciable bend in the mast on that boat. With the slight back angle of the stays, you would need to use a lot of tension to do that. The boat is already overpowered in most conditions above 8 knots, so I seldom look to add any extra belly to the main. Your particular mainsail may be different from mine, so what works best for me may not be best for you.

You can't reef the jib. It's either fully deployed or fully rolled up. The standard main gives you one reefing point. The boat sails OK with just a reefed main & no jib in 15 knots. When in doubt, it is generally good practice to reef before you go out. Getting the jib rolled up is not that tough when the winds pick up, but getting the reef in the main is a little more tricky when you are already overpowered. It's easier to shake a reef out when you don't need it, than it is to put one in when you do need it. I don't see reefing points in that main. If you don't already have them, I would see about getting a set put in, unless you don't expect to ever be caught in heavy air. I don't know your area, so I don't know how strong the winds tend to be there. That boat does carry a lot of sail area for it's size & displacement.

Unless you are normally going out in truly gentle conditions, you may wish to rig the main for "jiffy reefing". It's been discussed here before. I believe that Bobby posted some good pictures and/or diagrams to illustrate how it is normally done. This is not a must-do, but it can be handy when the conditions build, especially if you are a bit of a green horn. It's a nice thing to have. I still need to add it to my boat.

The way that those stays are set up, prevents you from letting the main out too far, so that boat is not particularly good on a dead run unless you are flying a chute. If I am racing with just a jib & main, I find that I get my best downwind times carving hard on alternating reaches, rather than trying to go dead down wind. It's work, but it makes a big difference.

The window in your jib is a real handy feature. I'm glad to see that you have it.

Have Fun!
 
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Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
...
As for the line tension. The forestay is snug and needs a slight extra push to make the hole. But not so much my 14 year old can't do it. The shrouds are set like the picture in the manual except one upper shroud is one hole tighter. I intend on setting that one back to like the book....
Don't go by the picture. The shrouds are never cut to an exact length. That is why you have the adjustment available. There is no standard correct hole for the pin to go in. Choose the pin positions based on the amount of tension that you want.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Folding and unfolding the sail is one of many things I need to figure out.
This is a whole new Thread...

It depends on how important you think it is to minimize creases.

I think ideally, do what dingy racers with laminates do and roll them on a tube. The flying scot club nearby uses dacron and ive never seen them fold or flake them. Rolled up. If possible we would roll from the bottom along the luff, then, as we raise the sail, it just unrolls.

My car isnt long enough for the rolled main and i bring it home after the sail. This ruins everything with a 170 sail.

The 170 has two sewn in battens. If the goal is to flake or roll and then fold so it fits in the sailbag, options are limited.

If you start at the bottom and roll or flake keeping the luff even, the battens will stagger over each other and you wont have any meaningful place to fold the roll.

If you roll from the foot up while keeping the leech even, the battens will line up and you can get a fold near the end of the batten, and then another fold. This is nice for the hoist since it just unrolls at your feet. Its a pain to get a nice crease free roll going from the foot though without help.

Alternatively, roll from the head down to the foot keeping the leech lined up, and youll be able to roll the sail up easily, on the ground or even over the side of the boat by yourself, while it is on the trailer. Its a pain to raise the sail as the luff corkscrews towards the leach. To set up I just hook the clew and the tack, then start reversing the rollup onto the deck flooring until i see the head.

I figure the sail is folded for a longer time than it takes for me to hoist the sail so, compromise. I really dont like folding near the batten end all the time, though so i keep thinking. If i had a longer vehicle i probably would just roll it up.

The Jib is easy. It has a wire for the luff so there is only one way to handle that. Roll starting at the head and roll it up like you were putting cable back on a spool. Keep the luff even and work down to the foot. fold in thirds or keep as a roll. You can try to fold it like a hank on but it wont look good at all.
 
Sep 5, 2018
214
Hunter 170 Northfield, NJ
Weather and time cooperated today.
Put the mast up and set the boom with the topping lift.
Put the foot of the sail on the boom, but left the clew loose.
Pulled up the sail halyard and it went up easy to the top.

I did not bother with the mainsheet or the vang, just needed to be sure where the problem was in the sail.

I took some time to look at the mast. It is pretty close to straight. I pulled on the lower and upper shrouds and saw how easy it was to bend the mast as an experiment.

We had a bit of wind, 5-7 knot from the beam. Had my son holding the boom while I was inspecting.and his eyes lit up when he realized the sail had filled and was pulling with a bit of force. He realized this boat will work and wants to get out. Today probably was not too bad a day to try, but we are not ready.

Next is to organize everything and write up some lists. Then I just need a weekend day where weather and tides line up.