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If it's a federally documented vessel, it's not going to have a state title. In this case, you need to go through the USCG to transfer ownership. https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organi...ter/National-Vessel-Documentation-Center-FAQ/
You can check for recorded liens against a documented vessel by calling (800) 799-8362
A 2007 45 footer is going to be worth some real money, if it isn't a total basket case. The guy probably wants some front money to prove that you are not wasting his time. He may also want some insurance in case your survey guy causes damage. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
I have never given front money before a survey, but by the time I am asking for a survey, I am usually pretty convincing that if I don't find problems, I am planning to buy. I do the initial inspection myself & only bring in the surveyor at the end, to catch things that I might have missed. I bring a surveyor to maybe 10% of the boats that I look at. I blackball most of them myself.
When I sell a boat, I usually require a small fee to do a sea trial. That fee goes towards the purchase price if the boat sells & stays in my pocket if it doesn't. That is how I shake out the tire kickers. If a surveyor want's to have a look around, I don't charge anything for that. If he want's to take a core sample or do other destructive inspections, that is going to require a non-refundable deposit that will be more substantial than the token fee for the boat ride. That's just how I do it. Different people do it different ways.
A boat sale is an agreement between a particular buyer & a particular seller. It can happen in almost any way that both parties agree upon.
Always assume that a broker knows more about boats than you do. Your surveyor is your equalizer. Get a good one if you can.
In water & out of water surveys each have their advantages & disadvantages. Neither is perfect. Ideally, you want both. I have never had the luxury of doing both.
Low engine hours are often a good thing, but on a boat of that age, it may be just the opposite. Not using a boat can be as damaging as abusing it. See what the surveyor says.
You can check for recorded liens against a documented vessel by calling (800) 799-8362
A 2007 45 footer is going to be worth some real money, if it isn't a total basket case. The guy probably wants some front money to prove that you are not wasting his time. He may also want some insurance in case your survey guy causes damage. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
I have never given front money before a survey, but by the time I am asking for a survey, I am usually pretty convincing that if I don't find problems, I am planning to buy. I do the initial inspection myself & only bring in the surveyor at the end, to catch things that I might have missed. I bring a surveyor to maybe 10% of the boats that I look at. I blackball most of them myself.
When I sell a boat, I usually require a small fee to do a sea trial. That fee goes towards the purchase price if the boat sells & stays in my pocket if it doesn't. That is how I shake out the tire kickers. If a surveyor want's to have a look around, I don't charge anything for that. If he want's to take a core sample or do other destructive inspections, that is going to require a non-refundable deposit that will be more substantial than the token fee for the boat ride. That's just how I do it. Different people do it different ways.
A boat sale is an agreement between a particular buyer & a particular seller. It can happen in almost any way that both parties agree upon.
Always assume that a broker knows more about boats than you do. Your surveyor is your equalizer. Get a good one if you can.
In water & out of water surveys each have their advantages & disadvantages. Neither is perfect. Ideally, you want both. I have never had the luxury of doing both.
Low engine hours are often a good thing, but on a boat of that age, it may be just the opposite. Not using a boat can be as damaging as abusing it. See what the surveyor says.
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@JimInPB gave accurate and solid info.
Documented Vessels have an advantage in the you can learn about previous owners and possibly learn their experiences with her. A documented vessel’s lien history is provided. Much like the record on a house. A state title is not the same. No lien history. You don’t need marine labor cost to come and bite you after you become the new owner.
Get the details of any “earnest money-deposit “ in writing. You want to get that back if the boat is not up to the Marketing hype presented.
Documented Vessels have an advantage in the you can learn about previous owners and possibly learn their experiences with her. A documented vessel’s lien history is provided. Much like the record on a house. A state title is not the same. No lien history. You don’t need marine labor cost to come and bite you after you become the new owner.
Get the details of any “earnest money-deposit “ in writing. You want to get that back if the boat is not up to the Marketing hype presented.
Asking for money before the survey is a form of extortion. I’ve heard of sellers trying that but it’s neither common or reasonable. Think - used car salesman asking for a deposit before buying it.
If he won’t trust you and your surveyor, why trust him?
If he won’t trust you and your surveyor, why trust him?
If you are planning to borrow money for the boat, the bank will require it to be documented. As John and Jim have said, it is a more secure way of determining ownership. At one time you could search and find the current and previous owner's name. That information is no longer available. You can get more information about the boat by searching here: https://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st1/CoastGuard/VesselByName.html Use the current name of the boat. When you get closing on the boat, you'll want to do a documentation search and redocumentation, you can do this yourself, however, there are agencies that perform this service and they are worth the money.
The broker will want a deposit and you want to give a deposit for a couple of reasons. The broker wants some money to confirm your interest in the boat and you want to put some money down so you are first in line. Without any money being exchanged, the broker is free to continue showing the boat and selling the boat even if you have invested in a surveyor. Brokers and sellers will have different deposit requirements, the last boat I bought I put down a little over 1% of the purchase price. However, I was well known to the broker, it was October, and the boat had been on the market for 2 years.
The typical purchase contract has language something like "pending satisfactory survey" which is your out if the surveyor finds a deal killer. If that happens you get your deposit back. The deal killer survey must show something significant that an ordinary reasonably competent buyer would not necessarily seen. The other option is renegotiate the price and repairs. Here's my story and I'm sticking to it.
http://www.sv-secondstar.net/blog/second-star/6-deal-on
The sea trial is really more about making sure the systems work. Does the engine run, alternator charge, sail furler's furl, etc. It is not so much a ride you take when buying a new car. Unlike a new car where you can take it up on a highway and on a city street, the sea trial is going to happen in a limited set of conditions that won't represent your actual experience owning the boat. Talk to sailors who own the same boat or similar boats to get an idea about performance and how sea kindly the boat might be. The broker and owner may require you to hire a licensed captain to conduct the sea trial.
If the boat is on the hard, expect to pay for it to go in the water for a sea trial. If the boat is in the water, expect to pay for a haul out for the survey. Same for the mast, if it is down, you will be expected to pay to step it and rig it for the sea trial.
Good Luck. Let us know if you have more questions.
The broker will want a deposit and you want to give a deposit for a couple of reasons. The broker wants some money to confirm your interest in the boat and you want to put some money down so you are first in line. Without any money being exchanged, the broker is free to continue showing the boat and selling the boat even if you have invested in a surveyor. Brokers and sellers will have different deposit requirements, the last boat I bought I put down a little over 1% of the purchase price. However, I was well known to the broker, it was October, and the boat had been on the market for 2 years.
The typical purchase contract has language something like "pending satisfactory survey" which is your out if the surveyor finds a deal killer. If that happens you get your deposit back. The deal killer survey must show something significant that an ordinary reasonably competent buyer would not necessarily seen. The other option is renegotiate the price and repairs. Here's my story and I'm sticking to it.
http://www.sv-secondstar.net/blog/second-star/6-deal-onThe sea trial is really more about making sure the systems work. Does the engine run, alternator charge, sail furler's furl, etc. It is not so much a ride you take when buying a new car. Unlike a new car where you can take it up on a highway and on a city street, the sea trial is going to happen in a limited set of conditions that won't represent your actual experience owning the boat. Talk to sailors who own the same boat or similar boats to get an idea about performance and how sea kindly the boat might be. The broker and owner may require you to hire a licensed captain to conduct the sea trial.
If the boat is on the hard, expect to pay for it to go in the water for a sea trial. If the boat is in the water, expect to pay for a haul out for the survey. Same for the mast, if it is down, you will be expected to pay to step it and rig it for the sea trial.
Good Luck. Let us know if you have more questions.
I tend to agree. There are more equitable ways of handling a transaction instead of implying every potential buyer is a con man.
Purchased Hunter 50 3 1/2 years ago from CPYB certified broker in St. Petersburg. Boat was in the water, after satisfactory sea trial I agreed to pay $350.00 for short haul to examine hull. Did survey myself. Was never asked for any kind of deposit before sea trial.
I also own a 2007 Hunter 41DS. Yanmar hour meters from that vintage are know to have issues, which mine has. I personally would not put much faith in the hour meter reading when purchasing a used boat.
If you would like more info, please PM me.
I also own a 2007 Hunter 41DS. Yanmar hour meters from that vintage are know to have issues, which mine has. I personally would not put much faith in the hour meter reading when purchasing a used boat.
If you would like more info, please PM me.
Here's an article from YachtWorld.com that might be helpful. https://www.yachtworld.com/boat-con...r-commissions-escrow-accounts-taxes-and-more/
Bear in mind that Yachtworld.com is like the Real Estate Multiple Listing service. Buying a brokered yacht is more like buying a house than it is like buying a car.
Bear in mind that Yachtworld.com is like the Real Estate Multiple Listing service. Buying a brokered yacht is more like buying a house than it is like buying a car.
Any sort of deposit should go into an escrow account and nowhere else. If this broker does not have an escrow account set up, do not do business with him. If the money goes in escrow, just like a house, it is your money until the sale is completed.
I doubt if I'd be willing to get into sales arrangement without the potential buyer putting up some sort of 'earnest' money. Moving the boat to a yard and doing a haul out requires some effort on my part and I'm not going to do it if I am unsure the buyer can even afford the boat. I am certainly NOT going to do a sea trial without a significant deposit.
I doubt if I'd be willing to get into sales arrangement without the potential buyer putting up some sort of 'earnest' money. Moving the boat to a yard and doing a haul out requires some effort on my part and I'm not going to do it if I am unsure the buyer can even afford the boat. I am certainly NOT going to do a sea trial without a significant deposit.
One thing I would do is ask the broker/seller if s/he has a recent survey in hand, and if so mightn't you read it. If an out-of-the-water survey is desired, then expect to pay probably a $1,000, maybe more, just for that. You have to figure in lift/yard fees. This a cost to you. If the boat is "off the market" while you're deciding whether to purchase, as with a day or two-day survey period start to finish, the broker/seller is going to expect--reasonably or not--some compensation for a buyer's hesitation in making an offer. If I wished to sell my boat, I personally would not wish to put up such obstacles. But getting an out-of-water survey in the role of a potential buyer is not as straight-forward a thing as you might expect. Inexperienced, potential boat owners basically do not know much about what they are doing, or much about how to go about doing some things. Maybe you should hire a buyer's broker to advise you. You may as well disabuse yourself now of any notion that with a boat of that size, things can be done "cheaply." Everything will seem expensive by everyday standards of rational thought and judgement!!
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I think dlochner has it right. When a broker is handling a sale, it is quite common for a contract to be in place, including a refundable deposit, before a survey or sea trial. That being said, it's kind of unusual for a broker to actually own a boat he is selling, and I think in some states it might be frowned upon.
Sometimes Broker/dealers will take a boat in trade for a larger boat. In order to make the sale on a new Beneteau 50 the dealer takes the Hunter 45 in trade.
Here in Long Beach an owner has to sign a bunch of papers to get the boat hauled. The owner agrees that s/he is responsible for all accrued costs. There must be insurance on the boat. After the yard work, the boat must be launched, or be ready (i.e., all paid up) to launch, by about 9:00 am of the day it is so scheduled or the owner may be charged a lay day. To receive a "launch ticket" for that day, the charges must be settled by cash, check, or cashiers check. A potential buyer would have no role in any of that.
I would not expose myself to those charges to facilitate a potential buyer's "interest survey" w/o CASH in advance; minimally the full cost of the hauling/launching of the boat, etc., and one refundable lay-day amount in case the surveyor is delayed or in some way is not able to complete the survey in the 24-hr grace period for lay days. That is, out in the morning of day one--back in the water the morning of day two, or else risk a lay day charge. For a 40' boat, I'd be holding about $600-$700 of the potential buyer's dough. None of it could be applied to the purchase of the boat. But, if the boat was put back in time, he'd get about $200 of it back, It would be more $$ for a 45' boat.
Also, haul-outs may require a few days to a week's notice. Those guys are busy. A buyer maybe wants to buy a boat on Thursday and wishes an out-of-water-survey. It may be the following Wednesday or Friday-week b/f the boat can be hauled, and the owner/broker has to get the boat to the yard, etc. In the meantime--is the boat still up for sale? If the potential buyer does not lay down some cash, then it is. If he does but then does not like the survey results, does he get it back? What about the week+ when the owner/broker could not accept an offer if another came along b/c of the earnest money "deposit"?
I don't think a buyer "looking for a deal" is going to hand over some amount of money to recompense an owner/broker's time lost dicking around with the guy who now does not want the boat, etc. It's not a matter of trust, IMHO. It's business.
I would not expose myself to those charges to facilitate a potential buyer's "interest survey" w/o CASH in advance; minimally the full cost of the hauling/launching of the boat, etc., and one refundable lay-day amount in case the surveyor is delayed or in some way is not able to complete the survey in the 24-hr grace period for lay days. That is, out in the morning of day one--back in the water the morning of day two, or else risk a lay day charge. For a 40' boat, I'd be holding about $600-$700 of the potential buyer's dough. None of it could be applied to the purchase of the boat. But, if the boat was put back in time, he'd get about $200 of it back, It would be more $$ for a 45' boat.
Also, haul-outs may require a few days to a week's notice. Those guys are busy. A buyer maybe wants to buy a boat on Thursday and wishes an out-of-water-survey. It may be the following Wednesday or Friday-week b/f the boat can be hauled, and the owner/broker has to get the boat to the yard, etc. In the meantime--is the boat still up for sale? If the potential buyer does not lay down some cash, then it is. If he does but then does not like the survey results, does he get it back? What about the week+ when the owner/broker could not accept an offer if another came along b/c of the earnest money "deposit"?
I don't think a buyer "looking for a deal" is going to hand over some amount of money to recompense an owner/broker's time lost dicking around with the guy who now does not want the boat, etc. It's not a matter of trust, IMHO. It's business.
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When we bought our Sapphire a few years back we negotiated a price, put a 10% retainer (by check) on the vessel contingent on the survey results, survey costs were on us, we did a haul out (on us) and a sea trial after a successful haul out survey.
Once both the survey and sea trial were complete we paid the balance. Had we not wanted the vessel on completion of a successful survey and sea trial, we would be out a $1500 penalty and the cost of the survey and haul out fee's (about $3000 total).
Our vessel is documented as a requirement of the financial institution who had a lien on the vessel. An interesting lesson for me was, one must be an American citizen to document a vessel, it is a good thing that my wife is and that we get along as she is the sole proprietor given the rules of vessel documentation.
Once both the survey and sea trial were complete we paid the balance. Had we not wanted the vessel on completion of a successful survey and sea trial, we would be out a $1500 penalty and the cost of the survey and haul out fee's (about $3000 total).
Our vessel is documented as a requirement of the financial institution who had a lien on the vessel. An interesting lesson for me was, one must be an American citizen to document a vessel, it is a good thing that my wife is and that we get along as she is the sole proprietor given the rules of vessel documentation.
When I bought my first boat, through a broker, I had to put down a refundable deposit.
The boat was already hauled and in storage. We held some $$ in escrow until we launched her and made sure all systems were OK. I also had a contract.
It all went very smooth.
I bought my second boat from a personal individual. The day we were supposed to close, he realized he had not paid off the loan, and neither he nor the bank could find the title. Quite the cluster fart. He went to the DMV (Michigan) got a replacement title, we cashed my certified check at my bank, and paid off the loan at his bank in cash, so I could get the lien released. Quite the cluster...but by the end of the day, I enjoyed a beer on my new boat.
It worked out.
I sold one boat, without a broker, too. That went smooth also.
Greg
The boat was already hauled and in storage. We held some $$ in escrow until we launched her and made sure all systems were OK. I also had a contract.
It all went very smooth.
I bought my second boat from a personal individual. The day we were supposed to close, he realized he had not paid off the loan, and neither he nor the bank could find the title. Quite the cluster fart. He went to the DMV (Michigan) got a replacement title, we cashed my certified check at my bank, and paid off the loan at his bank in cash, so I could get the lien released. Quite the cluster...but by the end of the day, I enjoyed a beer on my new boat.
It worked out.
I sold one boat, without a broker, too. That went smooth also.
Greg
In California, every brokerage sale includes a deposit.
Without a deposit, an offer is just air.
No seller should agree to an offer without a deposit, and no listing broker should submit an offer to their seller without one.
A deposit legitimizes an offer by showing that the buyer is serious, and has the resources to fund their portion of a loan if there will be one, or that they have the initial cash to buy.
Also, no seller should agree to have his boat dug into by a surveyor or sea-trialed without a deposit, nor agree to hold the boat in contract, unable to sell to anyone else, without a deposit.
That said, if it's good policy for a brokerage boat, it is for a broker-owned boat. He's then a seller, with the same concerns.
Without a deposit, an offer is just air.
No seller should agree to an offer without a deposit, and no listing broker should submit an offer to their seller without one.
A deposit legitimizes an offer by showing that the buyer is serious, and has the resources to fund their portion of a loan if there will be one, or that they have the initial cash to buy.
Also, no seller should agree to have his boat dug into by a surveyor or sea-trialed without a deposit, nor agree to hold the boat in contract, unable to sell to anyone else, without a deposit.
That said, if it's good policy for a brokerage boat, it is for a broker-owned boat. He's then a seller, with the same concerns.
That is certainly true for a dealer, that's just not the way I interpreted the OP. I thought it sounded like like the broker himself had bought the boat to flip. Could easily be wrong.
Could be that too. Brokers own their personal boats. There is nothing wrong with being the owner and the broker at the same time. It is just like the owner selling it him/herself. Remember the listing broker works for the boat owner, not the buyer. A potential buyer can enlist their own "buyer's broker" to help with the details. A buyer's broker splits the commission with the listing broker. The buyer's broker is there to help find suitable boats for the buyer. Both brokers work to make the sale happen and that both parties are happy (or equally unhappy).
A broker selling his/her own boat.
Is the brokerage office involved or is this an owner sale? I would think different elements of the sale apply. If the brokerage office then there will be administrative costs, office policies, perhaps state laws on the broker/owners side. These can be the brokers problem or the broker might want the buyer to assume these.
At the end of the day the buyer can consider these costs but is under no obligation to assume them. Buyer is searching for the bottom line that can sustain a deal for the boat desired.
Negotiate. See what the seller is interested in doing. Happy find a meeting of the minds. Unhappy smile and walk away. No harm no foul.
Is the brokerage office involved or is this an owner sale? I would think different elements of the sale apply. If the brokerage office then there will be administrative costs, office policies, perhaps state laws on the broker/owners side. These can be the brokers problem or the broker might want the buyer to assume these.
At the end of the day the buyer can consider these costs but is under no obligation to assume them. Buyer is searching for the bottom line that can sustain a deal for the boat desired.
Negotiate. See what the seller is interested in doing. Happy find a meeting of the minds. Unhappy smile and walk away. No harm no foul.