PHRF Classes

Jan 22, 2008
763
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
Our club currently has four classes within PHRF: non spinnaker, symmetrical spinnaker, A-sail sprit, and A-sail bow. They also have a short handed, a cruising class, and a multihull class that use different rating systems. Award ceremonies get pretty long.
They are trying to come up with something to get cruising class boats that fly A-sails to move into PHRF classes. The cruising club is almost always the biggest class in their two big annual race series. I race my Hunter 340 in the cruising class, because I enjoy racing against other Hunters and similar boats like Catalinas, Beneteaus, and Jeanneaus. And I enjoy using the A-sails I have along with several other boats in the class.
If I raced in the A-sail sprit class, I would be racing against J-130's and Melges 32's and such, I might as well try to do the 100 meters against Usain Bolt, even with a 75 meter head start.
If I raced in the A-sail bow class, I would hardly get to use my A-sail. Without a sprit, the small foretriangle with the very large main blankets the sail and limits its range.
They are trying to come up with an A-sail sprit class that can combine with the bow class but limit it to non sport boats. Maybe get some of the Hunters and Catalinas to join. Like limit the class to only aftermarket sprits or limit sprit length or an SA/D limit, none of them really good ideas.
Anyone know of a club that has a class designation without a lot of complicated restrictions that works well for non sport boats with A-sails on sprits?
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Regattas on the northern Chesapeake often have a single cruising class limited to non-spin only. Everything else goes in PHRF Spin (classed by PHRF rating) or PHRF Non-Spin. The cruising Non-Spin class seems to be growing, or at least holding steady while PHRF declines. Cruising classes aren't eligible for the annual high-point award, but many of those boats don't participate in enough regattas for that to matter anyway.

For our club's Thursday night races we don't have any Cruising class, but the Non-Spin class was growing beyond the Spin and One Design fleets last year. After much discussion (and against some very reasonable recommendations here), we split the Non-Spin class into halves based on SA/D. So far that has worked out quite well, with pretty consistent support, but your mileage may vary.
 
Jun 29, 2010
1,287
Beneteau First 235 Lake Minnetonka, MN
Our PHRF Fleet is spin and non-spin. You get a credit to your rating for not flying a spinnaker. There is also a credit, or penalty, calculation for the LP of the head sail in both fleets. Keep it simple.
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Could break the sprit boats in half using some arbitrary PHRF # cutoff for the hot boats vs the not so hot boats.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
A very laudable goal! While lots of classes create groups of very like boats, they make the fleets sizes very small and often bunch up the very good competition into one or two fleets, while the rest are not good at all.

First, breaking out sport boat is a very good idea. They sail a totally different race. It usually a ratios thing. Lake Michigan PHRF does the following. Like they say, 99% of them will ‘Look like a duck’.
F9EC0513-A890-4FEC-95BC-2543864E67BF.jpeg


Get those guys out, then just go spin / non-spin. Some will do PHRF ratings bands, but I would not do that in a fleet of less than say 40 boats. You can have a ‘cruiser class’ if you want, but I really don’t understand that. Your boat weighs an extra 1000 pounds, your sails are old and the guy on the j30 really know how to race and kicks your butt. But you still want a participation prize.

The corollary is that you only get better racing against better sailors. Keep sailing in your isolated little classes and you never really get better.
 
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JRacer

.
Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Funny you should mention "Ducks". We had a J24 guy that when he was about to jibe yelled, "Mallard".
 
Jan 22, 2008
763
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
You can have a ‘cruiser class’ if you want, but I really don’t understand that. Your boat weighs an extra 1000 pounds, your sails are old and the guy on the j30 really know how to race and kicks your butt. But you still want a participation prize.
I enjoy the cruising class, it's more competitive in our club than you might think. It's not just a participation trophy, you have to beat 25 other boats sometimes. It might be great to have a newer PHRF optimized boat with expert crew. In the meantime I've got a twenty year old Hunter and crew with kids and grandkids birthdays and little league and life coming before racing. So, when we can get on the water, we want to race against like boats. It's more fun getting in a tacking dual with a Catalina 36 than to finish an hour behind a J-109. It is great, though, having 80 boats of all kinds on the course. There is no perfect formula or class set up, but I posted the thread to see if there's a better idea out there somewhere.
I like the idea of picking a rating point to split the spinnaker classes instead of into a-sail and symmetrical. There will always be a mad boatowner that feels he's on the wrong side of the split, though.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I enjoy the cruising class, it's more competitive in our club than you might think. It's not just a participation trophy, you have to beat 25 other boats sometimes. It might be great to have a newer PHRF optimized boat with expert crew. In the meantime I've got a twenty year old Hunter and crew with kids and grandkids birthdays and little league and life coming before racing. So, when we can get on the water, we want to race against like boats. It's more fun getting in a tacking dual with a Catalina 36 than to finish an hour behind a J-109. It is great, though, having 80 boats of all kinds on the course. There is no perfect formula or class set up, but I posted the thread to see if there's a better idea out there somewhere.
I like the idea of picking a rating point to split the spinnaker classes instead of into a-sail and symmetrical. There will always be a mad boatowner that feels he's on the wrong side of the split, though.
Some great points.
Re breaking out the sport boats, very few people will argue with what is and is not a sport boat
Flying tiger 10M
FarEast 28r
Megles 24
J80
etc
Some of the Js closer to 30 feet get iffy, like the J92s. I like to think that anything with a diesel can't be a sportboat!

Your club's model would have the First 36.7 and the J/109 in different fleets. That would be sad, those two boats are natural enemies on the racecourse. Separate out the sporties, and any boat with a kite should sail it its rating.

Re picking the splits, many clubs wait until all the boats are registered to do the splits. That often helps avoid an obvious oversight. Everyone has their own thoughts on where they want to be in a ratings band. I'd always want to be the fastest boat, and thats why you see a lot of griping around PHRF 100, where many fleets create a band.

One more thought. a sprit does not give much added projection for downwind sailing AT ALL. Its really about allowing a bigger sail, flown farther forward. If you think of the geometry, a sprit with 3 feet of length past the bow (a pretty big add-on) flown at 160 TWA gives less than a foot of extra projection. All real projection comes from easing the tack and letting the kite rotate to windward.

Many PHRF fleets will allow a boat to tack an asym 12 (or so) inches in front of the bow, mostly to clear the bow pulpit) without a ratings hit, as long as the sail flown is sized for the J, and not the J-extended (ISP) length.
 
Jan 22, 2008
763
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
Why is there a class split between asymmetric and symmetric in the first place, who doesn't want to race against who? My guess is boats with symmetrical spinnakers are older and do not want to compete with newer sprit boats. There are First 36.7 and J-109's in the fleet and they race in separate classes.
We tried jibing DDW with our code 3 last Saturday in a race, trying to stay with a C & C 41 wing on wing with a genoa that passed us at the windward mark. Our spinnaker would flop at 135 apparent and the C & C opened up the gap. I blamed it on our big main with a big roach and fractional A-sail. I had a skipper of another boat on board who told me to let the tack out more, but it was already out a couple feet or so. How far is too far? The tack is on a cleat on the sprit, next project is to run it aft and get it on a winch. We made up a lot of ground on the last leg with the A-sail on a reach, but never caught them.
It was a "club" race with a Hunter 37.5 and 34, Catalina 380, 36, and 389, all good enough matches that made the racing close and fun. Except the C & C 41, they always run away with it when they show up. There's usually a few more Cats, older C & C's and a couple newer Jeanneaus, usually a dozen in these low key peanut races. Boats use their spin or non spin PHRF, their other club rating, whatever they want within reason, and there's only one first, one second, etc.
It won't work for the other larger, more diverse fleet. They have asked for suggestions on possible classes, I'll update with any new class they come up with.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Why is there a class split between asymmetric and symmetric in the first place, who doesn't want to race against who? My guess is boats with symmetrical spinnakers are older and do not want to compete with newer sprit boats. There are First 36.7 and J-109's in the fleet and they race in separate classes.
We tried jibing DDW with our code 3 last Saturday in a race, trying to stay with a C & C 41 wing on wing with a genoa that passed us at the windward mark. Our spinnaker would flop at 135 apparent and the C & C opened up the gap. I blamed it on our big main with a big roach and fractional A-sail. I had a skipper of another boat on board who told me to let the tack out more, but it was already out a couple feet or so. How far is too far? The tack is on a cleat on the sprit, next project is to run it aft and get it on a winch. We made up a lot of ground on the last leg with the A-sail on a reach, but never caught them.
It was a "club" race with a Hunter 37.5 and 34, Catalina 380, 36, and 389, all good enough matches that made the racing close and fun. Except the C & C 41, they always run away with it when they show up. There's usually a few more Cats, older C & C's and a couple newer Jeanneaus, usually a dozen in these low key peanut races. Boats use their spin or non spin PHRF, their other club rating, whatever they want within reason, and there's only one first, one second, etc.
It won't work for the other larger, more diverse fleet. They have asked for suggestions on possible classes, I'll update with any new class they come up with.
You said you have classes for 'symmetrical spinnaker, A-sail sprit, and A-sail bow'
Kick the sportys out and all race together. The 109 and 367 should race together.

If you actually have a Code 3, its not designed for deep work at all. Designed to reach, that kite will not rotate in front of the boat, and be a miserable experience with the wind aft of the beam. A good A2 would be a better choice, and look like this going almost DDW. With the tack eased, look how the luff rotates to windward, pulling the sail into clean air. Crew on the that side helps too!

spincrop.jpg
 
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Jan 22, 2008
763
Hunter 340 Baytown TX
I may suggest a class split around 100 or a sport boat class in PHRF Spin with no split for A-sail and symmetrical. I am no longer on the board, though and I don't know what the board and more influential club members actually want.
Looks like I need an A2. Looking at the chart, pretty sure I have an A3. I thought the sailmaker called it a Code 3, but I may have read that somewhere and it stuck in my head. As far as the difference between a Code 3 and an A3, I guess whatever the sailmaker wants to call it. And someone told me the Doyle UPS that came with my boat is basically a Code 0. I will look at my sail info and see what it says, including what's stenciled on the bag.

NS-VA.jpg
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I may suggest a class split around 100 or a sport boat class in PHRF Spin with no split for A-sail and symmetrical. I am no longer on the board, though and I don't know what the board and more influential club members actually want.
Looks like I need an A2. Looking at the chart, pretty sure I have an A3. I thought the sailmaker called it a Code 3, but I may have read that somewhere and it stuck in my head. As far as the difference between a Code 3 and an A3, I guess whatever the sailmaker wants to call it. And someone told me the Doyle UPS that came with my boat is basically a Code 0. I will look at my sail info and see what it says, including what's stenciled on the bag.
There is a key difference between Code and 'A' sails with the same number. Code sails are designed to be measured JUST large enough in the mid-girth to not measure as a genoa. An 'A' sail will have more area. For sure, the best general purpose asym is the A2. With its curved luff it will rotate and sail very deep, and with the tack pulled down still sail to a decent apparent wind angle as long as you drive the luff carefully. Same sail, doing 5 knots in less than 5 knots of true breeze. Often the luff will curl over about a foot, that's OK.

Fullscreencapture78201180931AM.jpg
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I may suggest a class split around 100 or a sport boat class in PHRF Spin with no split for A-sail and symmetrical. I am no longer on the board, though and I don't know what the board and more influential club members actually want.
Yea, maybe:
Sport boat (any boat exceeding 1 or more sportboat performance ratios)
Spin PHRF<100 (any config of spin)
Spin PHRF>100 (any config of spin)
Non-Spin
Cruiser 'run what you brung' (liberal credits for white sails, non-spin, RF, etc, if desired)

While PHRF 100 is a common and natural split for many fleets, you'll want to look at your fleet numbers to make sure it does not break up boats that like to race against each other. That number will split J/92 and J92s from each other; often a slight adjustment will fix that type of thing.

EDIT: many fleets will limit what boats can sail in 'Cruiser class' to keep proper race boats entering to cherry pick. No laminated sails, no folding props, etc, things like that.
 
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