External structure problem with internal ballast keel

Jan 13, 2019
51
Lockley Newport 23 Portman Marina
Hey everyone! And by the way, Happy Valentines Day to all of you!!
I have been contemplating a fix for this as it is getting worse. It was originally patched by a helper at a boatyard when I first salvaged it and I tried to dig out all of a one foot patch the previous owner had put on it to try and get to the root of the problem. I am much improved in working with fiberglass now than I was then. However, I do not want to take this lightly and am humbly asking for any suggestions as I get heavy in the research to fix this problem the correct way. Have been looking at Practical Sailor today and some articles I am reading is "A Quest for Keel Integrity;" "When Keel, Stub Part Ways;" "First Aid for Lead Lesions." And, also, have been studying West Systems "Repairing Keels and Rudders" more specific "Repairing internal ballast keels" although I think this damage runs all the way inside to the encapsulated keel (as a note: the keel is apparently lead encased in concrete which is then encased in the fiberglass--she is a Lockley Newport LN23). I was told two stories of how she became a salvage boat. The first was that she dragged anchor in a storm and ended up on her side on an island on Lake Hartwell; the other was that she broke loose from a mooring in a storm and ended up on her side on an island on Lake Hartwell. Either way she sustained damage probably from submerged rocks before making landfall. Any ideas, thoughts, suggestions, or reference material that I could further study are greatly appreciated. And I also will be consulting West Systems as they have been very helpful to me as have all of you who have been following "Selah's" transformation. Thank you all so very much.
James
 

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Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
James, have you determined the extent of the damage? Often when there is keel damage the focus is on the keel, however, the damage can radiate out from the impact area. Places to look are bulkhead tabbing, floor timbers, and importantly the hull for delaminated fiberglass. The tabbing and floor timbers can usually be inspected visually if there is sufficient access. Look for crack in the floor timbers and tabbing that has separated from the bulkheads or hull.

The hull should be sounded with a plastic hammer. Start at the keel and work your way outward, tapping the hull every few inches. You are listening for a nice sharp rigging sound, not a dull thud. Pay particular attention to the area aft of the keel and on the opposite side of where the visible damage is. In a grounding the keel acts as a lever transmitting forces into the hull on the opposite side of the impact. This damage is often less visible than the impact damage.

Ultimately you will need to remove the bottom paint and the gelcoat to effect a good repair and to clearly see the extent of the damage. Get your self a decent angle grinder with a dust collection system, this is a messy job and you don't want to be inhaling fiberglass dust. The repair will entail laying up new fiberglass and fairing the keel. At this point it isn't clear how large an area will need to be repaired. The hull should be fairly thick, so it will take multiple layers of glass to rebuild it.

A couple of good resources are The Boatworks Today YouTube channel and the Sail Life Channel. Andy Miller on Boatworks has several videos on laying up fiberglass and Mads on Sail Life is in the process of an extensive rebuild on his boat Athena, including laying up new glass on the hull and recording the deck.

Good luck, keep us posted.
 
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Jan 13, 2019
51
Lockley Newport 23 Portman Marina
Thank you, dlochner. I have been learning from Andy with Boat Works on youtube for awhile but will also check out Sail Life Channel. I did find two areas in the storage areas under both settees that had fairly long cracks that were open to the bilge. I ground these out and refilled with epoxy/silica and plan to add a couple layers of fiberglass mat for added strength. I have also been contemplating just removing the floor/sole in the area above the keel to get a better look as that is the only way to see what is under the floor. This has been a huge challenge/learning experience for me, but one I'm willing to take. Thankyou for any and all suggestions
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I did find two areas in the storage areas under both settees that had fairly long cracks that were open to the bilge.
This is not a good sign. It indicates that there is likely substantial damage to hull structure.

I ground these out and refilled with epoxy/silica and plan to add a couple layers of fiberglass mat for added strength.
Fiberglass mat is not that strong. It is used mostly to build thickness and to provide and an easily faired surface and block print through. Additionally, the stuff that holds the mat together does not dissolve in epoxy which affects the bonding of the mat to resin. It does does dissolve in styrene which is in polyester resin. Andy and Mads have been using 1708 glass cloth which is pretty strong, check Andy's recent videos on the Bertram foredeck.

I have also been contemplating just removing the floor/sole in the area above the keel to get a better look as that is the only way to see what is under the floor.
Before ripping up the sole, you might try an endoscope to take a look. They are pretty inexpensive, here's one on Amazon https://amzn.to/2EaAqna. I have one and it works pretty well. Just playing with it, we discovered green stuff growing my wife's aluminum water bottle and when I needed to get a model number off a cooktop I used it to take a photo of the label which would have been difficult to see other wise.
 
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Feb 5, 2009
255
Gloucester 20 Kanawha River, Winfield, WV
Any ideas, thoughts, suggestions, or reference material that I could further study are greatly appreciated.
In case you don't already know this, there are a couple of Yahoo groups dedicated to Harry Sindle designs like your LN and my Gloucester. The groups aren't very active these days, but I've found some useful information about my boat in some of the old posts there.
 
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Jan 13, 2019
51
Lockley Newport 23 Portman Marina
Thank you Joe, I took a look at the link last night with my phone. Do you know if I can join using my phone? Otherwise, I'll have to wait till I get back in wifi with my computer. Thank you for your help.
James
 
Jan 13, 2019
51
Lockley Newport 23 Portman Marina
Thank you, dlochner. You have helped me to make the decision to find out for sure what I have been suspecting--possible "substantial damage to the hull structure. " And, the suggestion of an endoscopy with source will be checked out as well as Andy's use of 1708 cloth and his videos of the Bertram foredeck will be watched when I return home Monday. This is one thing I love about the forum the willingness of more experienced members to guide someone like me who is willing to do the work but show me the errors in my thoughts --offering solutionsinstead of criticism--regarding this refit. Thanks to all!
 
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Oct 25, 2015
31
Catalina 22 Cave Run Lake ky
I also recommend you test for water in the glass layers, particularly at the bottom of all reinforcement in the keel area, and the bulkheads. See if someone in your area has a meter to test for moisture. You may have to sand spots along the bulkheads to get a good reading.
If you find any wet spots that may mean the water has travel along a crack in the layers of fiberglass and the will cause a failure in the future. Good Luck
 
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Likes: "Selah"
Jan 13, 2019
51
Lockley Newport 23 Portman Marina
Thank you Displacesailor. I took some pictures tonight with my phone camera from the bilge pumpout area at the companion way entrance. I believe I will need to do some substantial moisture readings throughout. Please check out my new post concerning the "--external structure problem with internal ballast keel--bilge area."