New boat issues

May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
the master of a ship better be a rigger, he better by a mechanic, he better be a cook. he is the boss of all these positions. be kind of stupid if the boss does not understand what he is in charge of once he leaves the dock. he is 'it' for everything on the vessel, everything.
i keep my vessels at a highly skilled boat yard. i would never assume that their work was good to go without personally checking the work. most work i order, i stand there and watch. if they do not like me looking over their shoulder then they will not be welcome to work on my boat. i have great respect for most of the guys at my yard. but not all. i hand pick who is to work on aeolus. i have what i call a babysitter at the yard that reports to me about all the the work done. the workers all respect me allot. they always try and give me their best.
 
May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
i did not make the laws. i just worked under them. i there fore understand the need to know every detail of a vessel. if you get a 50 ton license your liability will skyrocket in the eyes of the law. bet you you 50 ton license school did not mention such when taking your money.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
If a crewman comes with a qualification why isn't he held to a standard and a fault?
In my reading of Maritime law a seaman can be held responsible for his actions. And in the blame world there are sanctions applied. A loss of rank. Loss of rights to go to sea as a seaman. Yet the actions of the seaman do not exonerate the Master/Captain of responsibility.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
JS, you just made the point I wanted to make. It all depends on too whom we have to answer to. In the commercial world, the owner looks to the captain, the captain looks to the crew. Each has his recourse.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
unkledom, i love your sense for fairness and compassion. of course. it just doesn't work on the high seas.
really, a master's only job is 'responsibility'. he can delegate 100% of the work. or not delegate as he or she so chooses
 
May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
i have had discussions where people said that it was a very bad idea for a yachtsman to get a masters license because of the implied legal responsibilities. if one is getting such just to hang on the wall and never use commercially and not have the corresponding insurance, maybe that is something to consider
 
Mar 30, 2013
700
Allied Seawind MK II 32' Oologah Lake, Oklahoma
In my reading of Maritime law a seaman can be held responsible for his actions. And in the blame world there are sanctions applied. A loss of rank. Loss of rights to go to sea as a seaman. Yet the actions of the seaman do not exonerate the Master/Captain of responsibility.
From a US Navy perspective... The Sh*t flows uphill as well as down through the chain of command on a ship.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
unkledom, i love your sense for fairness and compassion. of course. it just doesn't work on the high seas.
really, a master's only job is 'responsibility'. he can delegate 100% of the work. or not delegate as he or she so chooses
IIRC, put another way it is, "You can delegate authority, but you can't delegate responsibility.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
i have had discussions where people said that it was a very bad idea for a yachtsman to get a masters license because of the implied legal responsibilities. if one is getting such just to hang on the wall and never use commercially and not have the corresponding insurance, maybe that is something to consider
WHAT I heard is if you get your Captains or 6-pack certificate and end up in court, The Man may see it as "you are a higher-educated sailor and should have known better".
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,319
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
WHAT I heard is if you get your Captains or 6-pack certificate and end up in court, The Man may see it as "you are a higher-educated sailor and should have known better".
It's not The Man you have to worry about, it's the jury and if I was on a jury the person with the license would be held to a higher standard. One of the reasons I haven't pursued a license.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Now that is an interesting and refreshing perspective.
How would you look at the situation if you were the jury?
Perhaps a practical question to pose if faced with a decision dilemma.
 
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Jun 8, 2004
10,024
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Folks,
In the past, I noticed blame being stated without knowing exactly what happanned. As a past investigator, I was told by one supervisor in the insurance company, all insureds are right. I looked at him and said really as many were lying. I said it depends on the facts. However I asked a question who was responsible for responses were thought provoking for one reason. Everyone should be aware and even a skipper is in charge of the ship, all on board should work like a team. When Basketball and Football teams play, yes mistakes are made but all of us are human but they all have each other's backs. To all, thank you for your responses. I did receive some private messages thanking me but I share the thanks to all who thought and to those as well who responded. Now that we will be more aware of our surroundings, may we enjoy Christmas and New Year. Thank you all.
 
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Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
You know I think some law, such as Admiralty Law is written and adjudicated with the intent to error on the side of caution and responsibility. While it does not make sense to blame the captain for anything that goes wrong on the boat, erring on the side of caution forces a very high level of responsibility on the captain, so the captain has no opportunity to be lax. Blaming a captain who may not be at fault prevents all captains from not taking responsibility for their boat. It may not be "fair", but makes the industry safer over all.

Something that always bothers me is how something as critical as a steering mechanism can be damaged to the point of unusable, unless it is hit by something. It is far too often we hear stories of damaged steering mechanism disabling a boat. This is one of those things that should not ever be able to be destroyed by seas, especially in a an offshore boat.
 

genec

.
Dec 30, 2010
188
Pacific Seacraft Orion27 HP: San Diego, M: Anacortes
@Crazy Dave Condon do I need to check the oil level after taking possession of a new vehicle from the dealer. I think this is kinda the same thing. There is an implied suitability of an object which was just handed over from the manufacturer. If there was human error it would be attributable to the manufacturer. Providing there was not a misuse issue on the part of the user.
I check the motor oil after every oil change... you never know when someone gets a bad phone call... also a buddy of mine once drove his car about 5 miles after an oil change... only to discover/realize that the plug had never been put back in (or had not been tightened)... the trail of oil was his first clue.
 
Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
I check the motor oil after every oil change... you never know when someone gets a bad phone call... also a buddy of mine once drove his car about 5 miles after an oil change... only to discover/realize that the plug had never been put back in (or had not been tightened)... the trail of oil was his first clue.
My point was more or less if the item is brand new from the dealer, like a car or truck, and it has a 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty, and the dealer hands you the keys, do you open the hood and check the oil and trans fluids? Or do you just take it on faith that the dealer did the right thing and are responsible for suitability of use? I believe the manufacturer is responsible for many things especially when they still own the vehicle/vessel.
 
Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
It is a “Trust but Verify “ situation.
If the dealer has done something good, then checking only confirms the good deed.
If not then you know the dealer was weak and you have protected your boat.

Changing the oil helps you establish your base condition point. Think of it as resetting the zero point,if that helps. Having changed the oil you really have not hurt your boat.
 
Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
I'm not beating around the bush any more. Raise your hand if You have bought a new car from a dealer and before you drove home have lifted the hood and checked the fluids. Because it isn't any different than trusting the manufacturer to have a fully functioning boat. I looked at the air in the tires which now displays on the dashboard and have known they were pumped up way too high for an empty truck and have waited weeks to get to it.

Edit:
Has anyone seen any update as to why this boat had a problem? It's been a while and I have seen no new story. As a matter of fact the only story I have seen is the exact same one given by the USCG. I find that more interesting than all this supposition.
 
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Jun 8, 2004
10,024
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Nothing else. It is funny when as an owner of a dealership, I made all my employees to work in every position to include sales, warranty, delivery, removing bottom paint and so on. When I was not there, anyone could do any job and we prospered. The only thing I did not allow was paying the bills but they knew what we spent as I made it a point to share together. Now that was a good team.

Can we let this thread die. I would appreciate it. It is making me Crazier. Ha Ha
 
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