Still struggling going close reach

Feb 6, 2008
86
Hunter 41 Punta Gorda
Valerio,

You asked me how my boat went to wind and I really didn't answer you. Today we went on an outing with the club. It was about a 6 mile race south to a nearby marina. The wind was out of the south ranging from 2 to 10 knots. Remember I told you we sail in light winds. I'll give you the high end numbers:
apparent wind 9 t0 10 knots,
apparent wind angle 35 t0 40 degrees,
speed through the water 7 to 8 knots.
It was an incoming tide so I didn't feel speed over ground was a good number.

Butch
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
GPS derived speed doesn't give a good performance guide. Unless you are certain there is no current affecting your headway. Relating your speed to your boat's hullspeed, specifically means speed through the water. Going with a 4 knot current can look really good on your GPS and sailing into a 4 knot current will look really bad on your GPS.
If you just want to know how long until you get there, use your GPS.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Feb 10, 2017
305
Hunter 41 Progreso
Butch i do not want to start a debate but a speedometer is not accurate, the only way to know your exact speed is to have a GPS and to know how strong is the current.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Butch i do not want to start a debate but a speedometer is not accurate, the only way to know your exact speed is to have a GPS and to know how strong is the current.
Or you could just measure your speed through the water to get boat speed. While impeller calibration can be an issue, speed through the water is the gold standard of performance metrics. Knowing SOG is handy for navigation purposes, but if you want to know how well your boat is performing, you have to know boat speed.
 
Feb 6, 2008
86
Hunter 41 Punta Gorda
Jackdaw that was speed through the water. We were sailing against the tide and that was the reason I used speed through the water. Is it 100% accurate? Probably not, given the way the currents flow into and out of Charlotte Harbor. Valerio was asking how other like boats performed going up wind. He and I have the same boat, an H41. The big differences are wind, sails and prop. He sails in wind near 20 knots and I in 10 knots. He has older Dacron sails and I have newer laminate sails. He has a fixed 3 blade prop and I have a 3 blade feathering prop.
Valerio was looking for comparisons for his boat. This is not exactly applies to apples but it gives him some thing to look at. The H41 has a small non-overlapping jib and a large main. It does not sail like a J24.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I can't find an example of one online because I can't remember what they were called, but we use to use a clear plastic tube in the shape of an 'L' with graduation marks on it for speed. Just hang it over the side, point the open end forward and the pressure would push the water up the tube. Just read the mark to get speed thru the water. Not the most accurate because different points along the hull experience different water speeds.
Another trick, take a small wad of T.P. or some degradable material that floats and drop it in at the bow. Time it to the stern and calculate speed through the water based on the measured feet per second you derive. If your timing is good, and you actually know your LWL while underway, it's pretty accurate.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Jan 12, 2016
268
Hunter 410 Ladysmith, BC
I think these boats were designed to keep the admiral happy. They don't like being over sheeted, or over canvased and protest when trying to be sailed in that manner.

With our H410 with 20 year old original bagged out sails, (new sails have been ordered) we can hit 6.5+ in similar conditions. I agree with others that you may be stalling out the main. We have a 6'6" lead keel which helps with reduced leeway however the righting motion shouldn't be too different from a shallow draft vessel. Compared to other boats I've sailed I find that that B&R rigs really don't like everything hardened super tight.

Consider in +20 kts easing your traveller out completely, and take all the vang pressure out. This will help get you to stop the boat being heeled more than 15 degrees. I aim for 10 degrees and will ease the traveller until it no longer is enough and then reef when pushing past 15 degrees. The hull creates too much drag past 15 degrees heel and kills your speed. I use the mainsheet to trim the top batten somewhere between slightly open and parallel to the boom. Close hauled is the only time we will ever be at 15 degrees. Otherwise 5-10 is the happy place.

Once the boat is standing up a little better, you will likely find your boat speed increases. In the wind conditions you describe it doesn't sound like you need a bigger headsail. With the main trimmed as stated above, simply adjust your cars and get the tell tails flying on the headsail. Hopefully you will have decent balance as that is the sail plan the designer created the boat to work with. It ain't a J boat, but you have 36+ feet of waterline and should be going faster.
 
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dakno

.
Jun 22, 2009
209
Hunter 41DS new orleans
DayDreamer, on your new main did you go with any type of batten? Also are you replacing the 110 jib? If so , with what? Have you seriously considered an A-sail?
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
@dakno the main we are replacing has (3) vertical batten of which we are going to duplicate on the new main, reusing the carbon fiber batton rods. The jib will remain as originally provided (110 roller furling) of which I love the ease of handling through tacks, we have a beautiful .75 oz A-sym on a Selden GX-15 top down furler. I have replaced the stock continuous control line on the GX and added fare leads to the stanchions allowing a single individual the ability of launching and dousing the spinnaker right from the cockpit. I may add an adjustable tack line to the system next year, at least I have this on my project list and we all have project lists I am sure.
 
Apr 21, 2014
184
Hunter 356 Middle River, MD
Have a 356 with in mast furling and original baggy sails that are being replaced as we speak for similar reasons raised above, but love the sail trim discussions and the opportunity to learn more. I know from the boat designer that it is meant to be sailed at a 15 degree heel, any more and I am battling the boat and the speed comes down.

Went with a rope luff 110% jib but have a question on trim if furled to a 100%, do you leave the jib cars all the way back to get the twist on the top or inch forward on the cars as you reduce the jib size? Do I have to worry about the leech being to open?

With the new main sail I will try to let out the main sheet out and vang off (which I had on in the past for close reach) and run the traveler to windward to center the boom and match sail shape to the jib, if I understand correctly.

Jeff
 
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Feb 10, 2017
305
Hunter 41 Progreso
JEFF, the jib cars are design to do two things, they allow you to use different jib size and the second one is to adjust the leech (the edge of the sail were the wind will came out of the sail)of the sail. If you push the car foward the leech will close, you want for close reaching the leech as close as you can, if the boat has more heel of what you want push the car back, the leech will open the wind will escape more easily and your boat will be back on her feet. In a roller jib is not easy but you can glue some tell tales along the edge of the sail to see the optimun flow of the wind. Remember in heavy boat you want your sail to be as fat as you can without making it flap. The fatter the more push foward you have, more slim equals more speed. So in a heavy chop you want your sail even fatter. Remember when hell the rudder will need to be as center as possible because it will be a big brake, so you need to balance your boat easing the traveller then the sheet of the main, when open the boom at close reaching you want the vang to be use as the car of the jib, let go the vang and you will open the edge of the main. REMEMBER ADJUST ONLY ONE THING, LET IT THAT WAY FOR A FEW MINUTES AND MAKE ANOTHER ADJUSTMENT.
 
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Feb 10, 2017
305
Hunter 41 Progreso
We did another club regatta this weekend. It was a 7 miles downwind and the leg back. We arrived with corrected time (generic phrf of 114) two minutes behind a beneteau 40 (we arrived 10 minutes before them but they havea Phrf of 135)and 4 minutes behind a beneteau 50. As usual the winds over 20 knots, the leg downwind at a speed of 7.5 knots, and the upwind with a speed of 5.5 knots, so i think if i do not change my sails to a no roller will be very hard to improve that. Side to side tacks were about 180 degrees and we kept at 15 degrees the max heall. To go to 6 knots and plus we need to open to 200 degrees side to side tacks. No spy.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
How are you making any headway with 180 degree tacks?
Sounds like you definitely need those new sails.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Side to side tacks were about 180 degrees and we kept at 15 degrees the max heel.
This makes no sense to me. This would just be going back and forth. A really good pointing boat might be able to tack through only 80 deg to the true wind. One like mine may do 100 deg. Yours is probably doing a bit more than that; but 180?? You may need some on-board coaching more than you need new sails. A guy who golfs in the low hundreds is not going to get better by buying expensive new clubs, etc.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
We did another club regatta this weekend. It was a 7 miles downwind and the leg back. We arrived with corrected time (generic phrf of 114) two minutes behind a beneteau 40 (we arrived 10 minutes before them but they havea Phrf of 135)and 4 minutes behind a beneteau 50. As usual the winds over 20 knots, the leg downwind at a speed of 7.5 knots, and the upwind with a speed of 5.5 knots, so i think if i do not change my sails to a no roller will be very hard to improve that. Side to side tacks were about 180 degrees and we kept at 15 degrees the max heall. To go to 6 knots and plus we need to open to 200 degrees side to side tacks. No spy.
For a boat your size 5.5 knots upwind is NOT great. My 25 footer does that. I looked up the polars of a Beneteau 42 (probably pretty similar) and in 20 knots it should make 6.64 knots boatspeed upwind, into 40 degrees true wind.
 
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Feb 10, 2017
305
Hunter 41 Progreso
sorry my mistake was 110 degree, if i go 10 off each side my velocity will increase for .5 knots
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,771
- -- -Bayfield
After sailing a J/24 with a relatively deeper keel per boat length and a fin keel at that, you should expect better windward performance with that keel configuration in comparison to the shoal bulb keel on your 41 DS. You are somewhat spoiled because of that, I fear because the Hunter keel is not the best for keen windward performance. i have a lot of experience with Selden in mast furling spars and you can achieve good windward performance (for a cruising boat) with a nice flat (and perhaps newer sail). Again, you cannot expect the same windward achievement with an in mast furling system, but when I have used them on various boats, I have been pleased with the performance. Regarding the location of your genoa lead, the way I figure it out for most conditions is to position the block so that when you gradually turn the boat towards the wind so that the luff starts to curl, the entire luff should curl at the same time. If the top half of the leading edge of the sail starts to curl before the bottom half, your lead is too far forward. If the bottom luffs first and the top luffs last, then the lead is too far aft. Put it in the perfect spot, then the leading edge of the sail will luff at the same time and that will offer you the best windward performance - at least from that standpoint. The one time you might want to bring the lead aft is in the very heavy stuff as that will make the upper half luff, which will depower the rig spilling air aloft, which will help you sail flatter before shortening the sail (or furling it in). Luff tension is another factor that affects windward performance in various wind velocity conditions. In light air, you want to ease things off and as the wind pipes up, you can add luff tension. If you get a curl in the luff, that is too much tension under any condition. As you add luff tension (in the genoa or main) you bring the draft forward. Ease it and the draft goes back. Tension the outhaul on the main and the draft comes down and ease it and the draft goes up. With an eased luff, the draft goes aft and you flatten the leading edge of the sail more which will help in windward performance with a finer entry as apposed to powering up the sail by bringing the draft forward. But, when the wind pipes up,you need more luff tension. Vang tension in the light stuff should be off more as should the backstay adjuster, if you have one. The traveler should be pulled to weather and as the wind pipes up, the traveler can be eased to leeward. When it comes to sail tension or tension anywhere, the old saying, "when in doubt, let it out", has a lot of merit. Sometimes it just doesn't seem like the boat is moving freely along and if you start loosening stuff up, she begins to accelerate. The bottom line is, while you are sailing along, it's fun to try different things to see the cause and effect of the changes.