Rudder Ideas!

Nov 10, 2015
195
Hunter 336 Columbia, SC
Hi Catalina 22 Sailors, I've been thinking(dangerous territory, I know) about my rudder. I have not put it on the scales but I'd venture to say combined with the tiller it has to be at least 50+ lbs! It does not seem to have water intrusion but I'm not sure. I do know it has been years since the boat was left in the water for any significant length of time. I've looked at Ruddercraft and their rudder is much lighter but it's not class legal. Does anyone have a better alternative that is class legal? The ones on CD are not that great(they also have Ruddercraft rudders) plus they are pricey. Has anyone tried to work on the original rudder making it lighter without destroying it's structural integrity? And is it worth it to try to make it lighter? I've thought(there's that danger again) about possibly copying the rudder shape and building it out of wood(cypress maybe) or another material, glassing it lightly and then painting it white. It would strong, yet light. Crazy idea? Perhaps. I know you guys will have fun with this but I know you're all pretty sharp too! So give me your best shot! I can take it! Thanks, in advance!
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Basically, only a rudder from the Catalina Factory molds, is legal for racing, but those are the class rules, and racing under the class one design rules. So even if you made a rudder that looks identical to a factory rudder, it's illegal.

Now, I have both a fixed, and kick-up Rudder-Craft rudders, (HUGE improvement over the factory rudders in my opinion), and I have raced several times in PHRF events. Because the PHRF rating assumes the boat is class legal, I have always declared the Rudder-Craft rudder, and they never cared. But, that's been my experiences. Actually, the Rudder-Craft rudders are substantially cheaper than any factory rudder. Catalina Direct quoted me $600. for the factory kick-up rudder blade, as of a couple years ago,(and the aluminum top portion is listed as no longer available). I believe the current price for a factory fixed rudder is in the $900. price range. As far as I know, Catalina Direct only sells factory rudders, or Rudder-Craft rudders, but I could be wrong. Another issue with a new factory rudder is the delivery time, which can be up to several months. I believe the weight used on a factory rudder is ~45 pounds.(I was way off there!) That way you can tell if the rudder is water-logged or not.

When I have time, I'll have to weigh my fixed Rudder-Craft rudder and my fixed factory rudder. The factory rudder hasn't been in the water for years and years, and stored in the garage, so there is no chance of any presence of water in the core.

Hope that helps,

Don
 
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Nov 10, 2015
195
Hunter 336 Columbia, SC
Hi Don, that does help and I appreciate your taking time to respond! I raced in a regatta this past weekend and I noticed that one of the rudders was being carried by a crew member. I told him he was either very strong or that the rudder was very light! Well, of course it was light and nobody seemed to care. Also, I understand that the rudder cannot extend under the boat beyond the plane of the stern but the top gudgeon can be extended to make it closer to the plane of the stern to decrease weather helm. Pretty interesting stuff, do you have knowledge of this?
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Yes, the C-22 Class rules require that no part of the rudder can extend forward of a line drawn down the transom. In other words, take a yard stick and lay it on the transom, the rudder can't extend forward of that line. So many of the racers install a block behind the top gougeon to kick the bottom forward to help balance the rudder. The Rudder-Craft's entire leading edge is in line with the pintals pivot point, which is why they steer so easy. When I entered a race using my factory rudder I couldn't believe the difference. I make no bones about it, I'm a Rudder-Craft guy!

I'll attach a photo from the MainBrace article comparing the factory to the Rudder-Craft rudders. Take a close look at the leading edge of the rudders to the pivot point. See how the factory rudder angles back even more? It's no wonder they steer so hard! And the factory kick-up rudder is even worse! I don't know how many times I was worried the tiller would snap when the wind piped up.

For comparison, I just weighed my factory fixed rudder, and my fixed Rudder-Craft rudder with a digital scale. My factory rudder weighed 25.8 Lbs, and my Rudder-Craft rudder weighed 27.4 Lbs, both have pintals installed, and no tiller.

Don
RUDDER-CRAFT ARTICLE 608.jpg
 
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Nov 10, 2015
195
Hunter 336 Columbia, SC
Editor, you bring up some great points! You are obviously well-versed in this rudder situation. Any ideas/thoughts on when the Rudder Craft rudders might become class legal?
 
Nov 10, 2015
195
Hunter 336 Columbia, SC
Thanks Editor! The big problem I see with this is that the factory cannot get one to you in a hurry if you should have an immediate need for it! I've heard it takes months as they don't have people specifically allocated to make rudders. If, God forbid, you should drop your rudder in the water, lose it in accident or worse yet, if someone should steal it, you are totally at the mercy of the factory! And there is no alternative unless you're lucky enough to find one on the side of the road!
 
Jul 14, 2015
840
Catalina 30 Stillhouse Hollow Marina
Thanks Editor! The big problem I see with this is that the factory cannot get one to you in a hurry if you should have an immediate need for it! I've heard it takes months as they don't have people specifically allocated to make rudders. If, God forbid, you should drop your rudder in the water, lose it in accident or worse yet, if someone should steal it, you are totally at the mercy of the factory! And there is no alternative unless you're lucky enough to find one on the side of the road!
It is sad that they would not approve a rudder shape that not only is far superior to the factory shape, but cheaper and easier to get.
 
Nov 10, 2015
195
Hunter 336 Columbia, SC
Very insightful John! It is indeed sad that the powers that be are sticking to their guns about the factory rudders! Come on guys, you let people put barney posts together and cunninghams on jibs etc. but you won't let people use a better rudder? What's up with that? Come on guys, get with the program! I'm new to the 22 but I'm always into improving the boat for the better! If you have the technology, use it I always say!
 
Mar 4, 2016
59
Catalina 22 Clearlake, Calif.
I have just read this thread and the 1/2 vs 3/8 pintle thread and the photo on this thread clears up some of my questions. I am new to trailer boats and just bought a 1979 swing keel 22. I am curious if the foil shape is better on the after-market rudders, or if it is just the straighter leading edge. I dislike excess weather helm and the strain it creates and was wondering if a different foil on my kickup rudder would help? Has anyone simply made a new improved blade to replace the factory kickup (and save the original for the next owner) and found an improvement in performance? Just curious? _____Grant.
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Don't blame the "powers to be" on the rudder restrictions. They are following the rules voted on by the "MEMBERSHIP".

Looking for change? Join the association and get involved, it's as simple as that. I know the racers are always looking for new blood in the racing community.

Don

Buy the way, I have a factory kick-up rudder blade and a factory fixed rudder that I'll be bringing to the C-22 Nationals hoping to sell.
 
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Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
I have just read this thread and the 1/2 vs 3/8 pintle thread and the photo on this thread clears up some of my questions. I am new to trailer boats and just bought a 1979 swing keel 22. I am curious if the foil shape is better on the after-market rudders, or if it is just the straighter leading edge. I dislike excess weather helm and the strain it creates and was wondering if a different foil on my kickup rudder would help? Has anyone simply made a new improved blade to replace the factory kickup (and save the original for the next owner) and found an improvement in performance? Just curious? _____Grant.
Yes, in my opinion, the Rudder-Craft rudder has a far superior foil shape. The factory kick-up rudder pivot point is also a big reason for the tension on the tiller. Look how far aft the leading edge of the rudder is from the pintals.

Don
 
Nov 10, 2015
195
Hunter 336 Columbia, SC
Hi Don, I am, indeed, a "card-carrying" member of the association and would be thrilled to see changes to the rudder restrictions. For changes of this magnitude, it will take a lot more than just this thread! The disparity between rudder weights is what concerns me, I know it's not "Earth-shattering" :) but since your outboard is limited to 40 lbs. and must be mounted on the stern per class rules, I feel that there should, at the very least, be some leeway is all I'm really saying! Now, how much did you say you wanted for your factory fixed rudder and what size pintles does it have?
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
LakeMurraySailor.....Glad to hear your a C-22 NSA Member, thank you for your support!!

Anyway, I agree that with all the changes made to the boat for racing, i.e. 150's, barney posts, rigging configurations, modern sailcloth, full battens, partial battens, etc, etc, etc, that opening up the rudder issue would raise the bar again I believe in the boat's performance on the course. But, we already have established procedures for amending the one design rules.

By the way, the outboard is not restricted to 40 Lbs, it must weigh at least 40 Lbs, or in the case of the little Honda's that many racers use, you have to add weight at the motor mount position to make up the difference.

As for the rudder, I need to repair a couple cracks in the seam,(typical problem with factory rudders as they age), and will probably bring it with me to the Nationals. Someone is bound to snap a rudder and might need it to continue racing. Almost forgot, it has 1/2" pintails. Are you coming to the Nationals, or the North Gulf Coast Cruise?

They'll have to pry my Rudder-Craft rudder from my cold, cold, dead hands....... LOL

Don
 
Nov 10, 2015
195
Hunter 336 Columbia, SC
Hi Don, I knew the engine must weigh at least 40 lbs. so I, too, would have to add a 10 lb. weight to my Suzuki 2.5(30.1 lbs.)! I'd love to purchase a Tohatsu 3.5(41 lbs.), and a new set of Joe Waters' sails(I sailed in the Catch 22 Regatta and Joe was there, I wish I had asked him the price to build a new set)! He built my set long ago and they are a little tired but serviceable! Tommy Smith wants me to go to the Chattanooga Challenge. Unfortunately I can't retire and my trailer needs work, so we'll see! Hopefully, we'll meet in the not-too-distant future!

Lee
 
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Mar 4, 2016
59
Catalina 22 Clearlake, Calif.
I just weighed my 79 kick-up rudder without tiller, and it weighs 29 lbs (bathroom scale,not certified) . It has not been in the water for 6 or 7 years so I assume it is dry. I ran into the previous owner yesterday and he told me that he had re-drilled the kick-up pivot point and moved the leading edge closer to the transom line, but not over the line. He said it made a world of difference in weather helm. He also said that he had a light weight blade at home that he bought from (I think he said Ida something) a company when he owned the boat, but after modifying the original, didnt use it. He said he would sell it, but I dont think he uses computers, so if there is interest here I will get his phone number. I hope to launch today. YIPPEE_____Grant.
 
Nov 19, 2008
2,129
Catalina C-22 MK-II Parrish, FL
Ida-Sailor was the former name of Rudder-Craft,(more to it than just a name change). It's my understanding that they did make a conversion rudder blade for the Catalina factory kick-up rudder before they started making their own superior version of a kick-up rudder. Not sure how re-drilling the pivot point would allow the blade to go more forward taking into consideration the aluminum casting frame design. I've seen where guys have pulled the plates off the sides and machined the casting to allow this, but it's risky being that the assembly is no longer available.

Have fun sailing, we're still a couple weeks away from finally getting back in the water!

Don
 
Mar 4, 2016
59
Catalina 22 Clearlake, Calif.
I launched today. First wet bottom for the boat in 6 or 7 years and first boat that I actually own to get wet in 20 years. It is like singing BACK IN THE SADDLE AGAIN. ____Grant.
 
Aug 22, 2011
1,113
MacGregor Venture V224 Cheeseland
Does anyone have a kick up rudder design I can copy and adapt to mine? I have a RK20
Here is a basic layout of one.
Really its just a long board cut in two in a certain way
and rejoined with 2 plates and some bolts.

I reshaped the lower blade of mine to a NACA 12 Foil, which took way longer
than I thought it would, but it works way better than a simple flat board with eased edges
which was the standard on boats of that era.

Construction methods abound on the internet and can be as simple or as involved as you wish them to be.

wow, 1000 posts with this one - and Grandpa said I wouldn't amount to anything....
 

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kbgunn

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Sep 19, 2017
210
2005 Hunter 33 Lake Lewisville, TX
wow, 1000 posts with this one - and Grandpa said I wouldn't amount to anything....
You have achieved the rarified air. Now it's time to work on the Likes to Posts ratio.... +1 from me!:thumbup: