Tiller Extension

Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
Recently broke the rubber universal of the Spinlock EJB tiller for the second time and have concluded the EJB is just too light weight for the weather-helm of a single rudder 27' boat. Looking at replacing with the Spinlock EJ (telescopic stick tiller) or EA (telescopic asymm handle) and just seeing what other people are using. Boxing Roo, I see that you had the EA added in addition to the EJB mount, but because of the forward location in front of the bend, it doesn't look like you can drop it into a clip when not in use. As the EJ and EA clips are bigger, I'm looking at completely removing the old tiller hardware and replacing with the new hardware. I'm thinking the asymm handle could be nice on the high weather-helm days, but just seeing if anyone had an opinion with either of the EJ and EA tillers.
 

JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,037
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
Curious to learn why this keeps breaking, I'm assuming the rubber connection is the failure point. I'm looking at options for my 25' O'day and think I could use the 900mm one.
 
Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
The EJB tiller is typical of what you would find on a dingy. The rubber universal has a diameter of about 3/8" (10mm). I don't think they ever intended it for a 27' sailboat. The EJ and EA have either a steel pin or a heavy-duty rubber universal. I'm looking at the steel pin version so that it can be easily clipped in place when not in use and most importantly, will also lay against the leeward cockpit so I can run forward and grab a beer.

What I'm really trying to decide on is, do I want the asymm handle for the high weather-helm days? Another option, because of the removable steel pin, is to buy both and let conditions dictate if I want a stick or handle that day.
 
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Nov 1, 2017
635
Catalina 25 Sea Star Base Galveston, TX
@Codybear ,
The fleet of Sonars I used to race with used extensions that were connected to the coupling by a rotating ball instead of a rubber flex-coupling. They weren't quite as smooth, but were tougher and almost impossible to pull out of the socket.​
 

Azure

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Mar 5, 2017
27
Catalina 275 Sport 1 San Francisco
I replaced the extension on Azure with an EA. My girlfriend finds it much easier to control with helm. We remove it to cover the tiller. I highly recommend it.
 
Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
Did you install the 900mm or 1200mm (max) EA? I keep forgetting to measure the existing, but I believe the stock EJB is 900mm. I'm leaning towards the 1200mm (750mm min) which will give me an extra foot forward when solo.
 

Azure

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Mar 5, 2017
27
Catalina 275 Sport 1 San Francisco
I installed the 900mm and we don't use it fully extended.
 
Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
Would you say that you at least extend it to 750, which is 6" short of full length?
 

Azure

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Mar 5, 2017
27
Catalina 275 Sport 1 San Francisco
I am going out Friday and will take a couple of pictures
 
Jul 24, 2018
34
Catalina 275 36 Sydney Harbour
For C275 single handing I find the biggest benefit of the EA handle is it can be fully extended (quick and easy to adjust with one hand) allowing you to go forward and make cabin top winch adjustments leaning weight away from and thus tensioning the extension to keep rudder centered boat tracking for the precious bit of time it takes to make an adjustment with the other hand. The 900mm extension requires a bit of a stretch to crank the winch from my 5'10'' wingspan, so leaning forward to get there is a bit of serendipity. With this technique you quickly start getting good at easing lines off Harken self tailors with one hand.

I also find the EA useful is on a shifty beam reach, where I'm inclined to swivel the mainsheet cam cleats around and sit forward of the traveler to view the jib and (again) stand up to lean forward and trim it headers and knocks. Sitting halfway up the cockpit the extension becomes shallow angle relative to the tiller/rudder line, so the EA handle gives you something ergonomic to push & pull against to make up for the lack of leverage.

From the helm position at the back of the cockpit I actually find the EA handle slightly cumbersome. I like a little bit of weather helm for lift - no more than say 4 degrees - but nothing more than that if I can help it. A lot of sailors go to the likes of a feathered/folding prop to reduce drag... but then are happy to drag a stalled spade rudder through the water (?) I have an extra purchase in my backstay tackle and spend a lot of time adjusting camber/draft/sheeting traveler down in a blow to take as much weather helm out of that sail plan as I can without having to dump the sheet/lose drive if I can help it. I sail with as little weather helm as I can manage.

In summary: I would definitely recommend the Spinlock telescopic EA. On a C275 I would suggest looking at the 1200mm for anyone under 5'10" (so you can get to the winches) but the 900mm for anyone that height or taller because (even shortened down to min. length) I imagine the 1200mm might be a bit long to comfortably use with anything like a straight arm from a C275 within cockpit helm position. So the 900mm extension if you can.

I have the pin mount and would recommend it (quick/easy - just don't drop the pin!) my 900 AE doesn't have a tiller clip, it just hangs back when not in use but it never really feels as though its in the way. Obviously it gets taken it off to put the tiller cover on before going home.

My Auto pilot: As for grabbing a beer out of the esky... I keep a pre-tied furling ribbon from both stern bollards. When I need another coldie I put the loose loop ends over the end of the tiller (using the Spinlock mount as a stopper) to keep it centered and head below. Either that or if I'm feeling really lazy and have a bit of space I'll leave the helm, head below and leave the boat to 'S' back and forth for a few tacks - until I'm back on deck with the fresh can sleeved in the drink holder. Gotta love that self tacker ;-)
 
Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
Just was out this evening with some good gusts and think the 1200mm handle (750 shortened) may be too long when overpowered. On a stick, you can choke up, but with a handle, it may be awkward. Except for the extremely few times I need to reach the cabin and still maintain control, the 1200 min length may be a detriment.
 
Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
Oops, sorry, meant the "1200 max length". I'm starting to think that when it comes to the sailing, the 900mm is the correct length except for the extremely few times I need to reach the lines on the cabin where I wish I had the 1200mm. It is a trade off, but I think I will be happier with the 900mm in the long run.
 
Jul 24, 2018
34
Catalina 275 36 Sydney Harbour
I still have the C275 stock fitting EJB and fixed length extension, so gave both a fair run initially. Actually found the stick more comfortable when driving from helm position back of cockpit on basis it can be held equally comfortable anywhere along it, with any little bit of excess length tucked under forearm not unlike a skiff. I can understand the EA handle ring for bigger boats, but for an ample chord length relatively directionally stable small fin keel boat like the C275 (where you are hardly threading a needle to keep it in the groove) IMHO the EA handle ring is a bit OTT. That is unless you are consistently pulling hard against weather helm in which case I'd be making rig and trim adjustments elsewhere. But I still now prefer and use the EA extension as the 'go to' for aforementioned reasons Re flexibility moving around the boat on my own.

Codybear, if you seldom single hand... have you considered a pin mounted telescopic stick? It might give you the best of both worlds.
 
Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
I find you get a quite a bit of weather-helm when flying the asymm in good wind and the apparent wind goes forward of beam. I also get it when the boat is just plain overpowered, which is very common on gusty offshore days. When the wind goes from 15 to 30+, like in yesterday's sail, the boat is going to want to round up, like when I put the leeward rail under water with 5 adults on the windward rail and a reefed main.

I was looking at the existing EJB stick and most of the wear marks in the foam appear to be about 8-9" (on center) from the end. So on a normal day I use 900mm and overpowered I probably use the equivalent of a 750-800mm.

I'm clearly decided on the 900 EA. I'm flipping on the additional 900 or 1200 EJ (stick). It was 1200 yesterday, 900 yesterday evening and now I'm back to 1200. If I order overseas, I can pick up the 1200 EJ for about $132 extra, so I might as well get both. This will also give me a spare pin, shock absorber, and clip. As I will be ordering overseas, there will be no returns for practical reasons and getting it right the first time is important. So that said, I'm going to go with the 900 EA and 1200 EJ. Trying to get it before the last sail of the season which is 32 nm. and if I end up solo, the EA handle would be less tiring on the wrist.
 
Jul 24, 2018
34
Catalina 275 36 Sydney Harbour
I'm thinking about putting 2nd reefing points in between the 1st and 2nd battens, with a view to transferring the lines up before hoisting on days I know I'm going to need it. Off the coast in a lumpy sea state I've found the boat behaves quite well. With almost zero rocker at the bow coupled with full and flat sections aft pitching is kept considerably down, also the chord length of that keel is nicely that little bit tender and forgiving. But the lack of a second reefing option does leave the running rigging a bit limiting for that type of sailing (which I love).

More often than not my crew consists of a 7 year old kid, so I've never had the kite up in more than about 12 knots of breeze. With a slightly high centre of gravity (at least relative to a lot of modern deeper draft bulb keel sprit boats) I can imagine it quickly becoming a bit of handful in a blow.

Suffice to say he's also not much in the way of rail meet.

... but I digress.
 
Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
I wonder if my boat behaves a bit different with regards to weather-helm because I have the wing keel with 3'-8" draft?

I usually fly the asymm on the return to the harbor and because I have a destination, I may end up being closer to the wind than a nice comfortable downwind. If the apparent wind goes forward of beam in 13-18 knots, it's like watch out and you may end up with the tiller all the way windward trying to save a luff-up and flogging of the asymm. In that case, not only am I yanking on the tiller extension, I also have five toes or my heal over the tiller pulling with my feet as well. Add some following waves (fresh water chop) and it's days like that when I can hit 10 knots. Had a couple of times where the bow was only a couple of inches above the wave I drove into.

On windy days, a second reef would be nice. That would certainly help balance the boat out. Your idea of prerigging to a second reef before heading out seems like a reasonable solution to running a second line, except it may feel like going out windsurfing and guessing the wrong sized rig. It would be nice to have the option to be able to change reefs on the fly. I wonder if there is enough room to squeeze a fourth clutch on the port side?:

P1020487.JPG


From this prospective, it may overhang the front:

P1030421.JPG


I really would hate to have to drill and tap all new holes to rearrange the clutches to make it look nice. I remember someone mentioning adding a second reef, but I don't know if it was done. Definitely did not make it into the "Pimp" thread.
 
Jul 24, 2018
34
Catalina 275 36 Sydney Harbour
I'd be interested to compare to what extent the extra ballast in the winged keel compensates for the reduced leverage in terms of righting moment. My understanding is that as a boat heels on a broad reach forward driving forces above the water (sails) move out to leeward, dragging forces below the water (appendages where not generating lift) move out to windward - the net result being a tortion like rotational force around a vertical axis causing the boat to round up i.e. weather helm. I can imagine a scenario where some lesser stiffness against heeling combined with added surface area and form drag associated with the winged keel might compound that a little bit.

I get why Catalina generally focus on shoal draft designs because it widens their market into shallow cruising grounds (and increasing market share is clearly what they do best) however where I am in and around Sydney the anchorages/waterways are relatively deep water. So even having the deeper 5' fin keel version, I'd be happy to have a bit of keel area taken off the length and added to the bottom to get something closer to 6' draft. Its one of the very few things about the set-up that I would change, if I had my way. But not much else.
 
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Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
The lake is plenty deep, the harbor I reside, not so much. It is because of the skinny water in the harbor that I opted for the wing. It wasn't necessarily the easiest choice, but it was the safest.
 
Jul 24, 2018
34
Catalina 275 36 Sydney Harbour
Bear in mind with those wings you've got some end plating to mitigate tip votice losses + you get a fraction of that draft back when your boat heels. So on certain points there are gains. It would be interesting to line up a fin and winged keel C275 to compare characteristics in different conditions and points of sail. Other than pointing and footing on the wind... with the boats displacement I suspect other performance differences might be perceived as negligible i.e. more likely to come down to who has the least stretched sails (and beer in the esky).
 
Jun 6, 2016
204
Catalina 275 Wilmette, IL
I'm relatively surprised with the C275 wing's performance close hauled. Next time I'm tacking up wind, I have to record the compass heading on my handheld to the GPS and see if I can come up with an estimate of the drift. I'm somewhere between 5 and 15 degrees based on visual observation. My Capri 22 wing was God awful and somewhere between 15 and 30 degrees.