Battery Combiner versus Echo Charger.
- Thread starter jviss
- Start date
What are ACRs, Combiners & Echo Chargers? (by Maine Sail) [scroll to the top]
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=742417 and http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9404.msg70131.html#msg70131
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=742417 and http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9404.msg70131.html#msg70131
Since I'm with Stu, terminologically challenged, I'd like to hear more about this question. What terminates on which terminal to prevent terminal injury to the terminology for the term of this terminus?
- Will (Dragonfly)
My thinking is that if you combine batts or banks while charing, one dominates, and the result may be improper charging for the other, if they are different. For example, holding your fully-charged engine start battery at 14.4 Volts while the house is in acceptance mode will tend to boil the engine battery, no?
Nope, here's why:
Overcharging with Combiners or ACRs The MYTH:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7052.0.html
All this stuff is in my Electrical Systems 101 topic, which I thought you'd already seen.
Electrical Systems 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
Thanks Stu, but I don't buy it - yet. You and @Maine Sail are saying it's O.K. to hold a fully charged battery (regardless of type) at 14.4V; if that is so, why don't we just float them at 14.4V and dispense with the third stage of three stage chargers, which is "float," at 13.6V or so? If the answer is "just water them," then O.K., fine. If no damage, just accelerated water loss, I get that, too.
Just wondering. Believe it or not, this keeps me up at night.
Just wondering. Believe it or not, this keeps me up at night.
@jviss now you have me worried. There are much bigger things to worry about and keep you up at night than an echo charger vs. Battery combiner debate.Just wondering. Believe it or not, this keeps me up at night.
Ya know, sometimes I have to think "who cares" if you get it?
If you are unwilling to listen to a trusted boat electrical specialist, why do you even bother asking?
I am more concerned about folks who read these posts and are trying to learn.
Please don't distract them.
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Go cruise for a week. Use your electrical instruments and measuring devices.
It's simple.
What goes back in has to >>>>>than what is taken out.
Battery charging scenarios haven't changed in the last decade. Have they? The battery types have, but they each may have different voltages, but the concept is the same.
Look, the "I left the dock with a full battery bank" crowd has left the station. Those are the guys who worry about "overcharging." Utter BS.
Why?
The real world is: whatever it was when I left the dock is now completely different and is completely IMMATERIAL. What it really is: I have USED my battery bank and it is less than full.
How do I charge it up to be useful?
This is Basic 101 stuff.
You'd sleep better if you studied harder.
Let's KISS: only way to overcharge is excess voltage. That is the entire point.
This should be a Done issue.
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Excuse me, but I respectfully submit that you've got your umbrage completely bassackwards, jviss.
You asked a question and I gave you a reference with the answer that explains in great engineering detail exactly what you wanted to know, and you had asked. "Which is better? Is either one bad?"
Then you talked about overcharging, and I again patiently provided a detailed reference explaining why that won't happen. Then you just said you "don't buy it" without any backup for that "position." In reply #9 I disagreed with your assessment, you know, just what you want in a forum discussion, right? I don't want new folks to be misled. That's all.
Trusted??? Really, you're kidding. You've been on this forum for a long time, so you MUST have heard of MAINE SAIL. He's just "pretty good" on boat electrical systems, isn't he?
The entire concept of the use of any VSR, whatever it may be, is to deal with charging, not dealing with full banks while one is at a dock and plugged in. All this was explained in the links. So I didn't have to retype it.
Everything's open to discussion. If you have a technical question or some actual reason for "not buying it" I'm all ears. I would love to learn something new.
In this case, yes, it IS settled science, and has been for a long time. It's how stuff works.
For example: If you don't believe the sun will rise everyday in the east, you need more to support a claim that it won't than you "don't buy it." Much more. Really, that was my only point.
You asked a question and I gave you a reference with the answer that explains in great engineering detail exactly what you wanted to know, and you had asked. "Which is better? Is either one bad?"
Then you talked about overcharging, and I again patiently provided a detailed reference explaining why that won't happen. Then you just said you "don't buy it" without any backup for that "position." In reply #9 I disagreed with your assessment, you know, just what you want in a forum discussion, right?
I don't want new folks to be misled. That's all.Trusted??? Really, you're kidding. You've been on this forum for a long time, so you MUST have heard of MAINE SAIL. He's just "pretty good" on boat electrical systems, isn't he?
The entire concept of the use of any VSR, whatever it may be, is to deal with charging, not dealing with full banks while one is at a dock and plugged in. All this was explained in the links. So I didn't have to retype it.
Everything's open to discussion. If you have a technical question or some actual reason for "not buying it" I'm all ears. I would love to learn something new.
In this case, yes, it IS settled science, and has been for a long time. It's how stuff works.
For example: If you don't believe the sun will rise everyday in the east, you need more to support a claim that it won't than you "don't buy it." Much more. Really, that was my only point.
You'd find the forum much friendlier if you weren't trolling it.
The other day you almost apologized to MS and me on another thread, I thought you were making progress.
Many of the threads you start, begin like this one. You asked a fair question, you got some fair answers. However, it seems that when the answers don't go the way you want, you get a bit persnickety and seem to take it personally.
When a person asks a question it is usually to either 1) gain new knowledge about a particular situation, issue, etc. or 2) to confirm already held beliefs and ideas. When you pose questions on the forum, is it for reason 1 or reason 2? To be clear, that is a rhetorical question.
I'm not trolling, I sincerely wonder what the affect of a combiner is, versus the echo charger. If a battery preforms well when charged properly, how can subjecting the start battery to extended periods of 14.4V accept mode voltages be good for it? I know MaineSail said his experience was that it didn't matter, his batteries performed well. But, if that's O.K., why float at 13.6 instead of 14.4? That's all.
The part I found unfriendly was the rebuke for asking about something that's supposedly "settled science," and that my "don't by it" comment was unsubstantiated, which was certainly substantiated when I wrote "are saying it's O.K. to hold a fully charged battery (regardless of type) at 14.4V; if that is so, why don't we just float them at 14.4V and dispense with the third stage of three stage chargers, which is "float," at 13.6V or so? If the answer is "just water them," then O.K., fine. If no damage, just accelerated water loss, I get that, too. "
But O.K., enough of the me/them, etc., nonsense, I'm really just interested in what's the best way to do this, to keep a start battery up when my alt if connected to my house bank. I currently have an echo charger, but I have had reliability issues with these, and combiners are much simpler, and probably more reliable.
The part I found unfriendly was the rebuke for asking about something that's supposedly "settled science," and that my "don't by it" comment was unsubstantiated, which was certainly substantiated when I wrote "are saying it's O.K. to hold a fully charged battery (regardless of type) at 14.4V; if that is so, why don't we just float them at 14.4V and dispense with the third stage of three stage chargers, which is "float," at 13.6V or so? If the answer is "just water them," then O.K., fine. If no damage, just accelerated water loss, I get that, too. "
But O.K., enough of the me/them, etc., nonsense, I'm really just interested in what's the best way to do this, to keep a start battery up when my alt if connected to my house bank. I currently have an echo charger, but I have had reliability issues with these, and combiners are much simpler, and probably more reliable.
Because we explained that in my link in reply #9, which in part, included this IN ANSWER TO YOUR original QUESTION:
The bottom line is that current simply flows where it is needed, batteries will take what they need when batteries are combined, and the voltage becomes equal among the new combined bank. Unless your charger, alternator or solar/wind system is pumping out an incorrect voltage for you bank you will not over charge using an ACR.
In answer to this new one, it is because that 14.4V doesn't last forever. Period. Alternators are turned off when the engine is turned off, if you don't have an external regulator. If you do, once the target bulk voltage is reached, amperage begins to drop. It's all about battery acceptance.
This one is so basic, that all I can respectfully suggest is that you read ANY technical literature about battery charging and voltage profiles. That's why they write books. Do you have Calder's? If so, let me know what edition and I'll tell you what page to start reading.
Can we keep these discussions constructive?
Remember, "weak minds discuss people; strong minds discuss ideas".
Pick one!
Remember, "weak minds discuss people; strong minds discuss ideas".
Pick one!
On one of my several trips through graduate school, I learned that to get a good answer to a question, you must first ask a good question.
The question you asked is poor.
The first response should be "Better for what?" And then we can go from there.
Better questions lead to better answers. For example if the question asked was something like, "What are the differences between an echo charger and a battery combiner?" A different set of answers would ensue and a more informed discussion could occur. Or perhaps, "What are the strengths and weaknesses of a battery combiner and an echo charger?" Or, "How do ECs and BCs differ in their function?" Or, "Help me understand the differences between ECs and BCs so I know what will work best in my application."
If someone should ask about using a diode based combiner on a sailing forum the resounding answer is to avoid them like the plague. However, diode based combiner are still made and sold and in certain markets they are better suited for the job. Does that make them better or worse? Good or Bad? It all depends.
The point of this is simply encourage folks to ask good questions that will lead to good discussions and information. Asking vague, opinion questions smacks of trolling and inflamed emotions. Nothing that we want to see here.
Guys,
An ACR/Combiner follows the charge source voltage (does not float start independently of house)
This article exxplains anything you'd need to know about ACR/VSR/Combiners:
Making Sense of Automatic Charging Relays (LINK)
An Echo Charger follows the charge source voltage with a cap of 14.4V (does not float start independently of house)
A Balmar Duo Charger follows the charge source voltage with an adjustable voltage cap (does not float start independently of house)
Most all multi-output battery chargers follow the single internal regulators voltage (does not float start independently of house)
A Sterling Battery to Battery Charger (B2B), such as a BB1230 is a true DC to DC battery charger and is the only product in the class that can charge a second bank with its own fully independent and customizable charge profile. It also includes temp compensation. Is it needed? In some cases yes.. A good case for a B2B would be GEL house (14.1V) and a TPPL AGM thruster or start bank (14.7V)...
An ACR/Combiner follows the charge source voltage (does not float start independently of house)
This article exxplains anything you'd need to know about ACR/VSR/Combiners:
Making Sense of Automatic Charging Relays (LINK)
An Echo Charger follows the charge source voltage with a cap of 14.4V (does not float start independently of house)
A Balmar Duo Charger follows the charge source voltage with an adjustable voltage cap (does not float start independently of house)
Most all multi-output battery chargers follow the single internal regulators voltage (does not float start independently of house)
A Sterling Battery to Battery Charger (B2B), such as a BB1230 is a true DC to DC battery charger and is the only product in the class that can charge a second bank with its own fully independent and customizable charge profile. It also includes temp compensation. Is it needed? In some cases yes.. A good case for a B2B would be GEL house (14.1V) and a TPPL AGM thruster or start bank (14.7V)...