"racy" head sail for my furler?

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
You guys looked good yesterday! Only ones using a chute. That was a lot of wind!
I wish I had known there was going to be a race. I would have taken my camera!
Yea, we were seeing 18-25 knots apparent going uphill at about 5.5-6 knots and running off the wind with the chute at 7.5 knots+ according to the GPS when I dared look away from the action. Boat was hauling the mail. Those short courses with multiple laps make a lot of work for the crew. And, it gets a little sporty when we have to run so deep on those W/L tracks.

We put it up and God takes it down!!!

Racing every Sunday at 2 from here until the end of Oct. Camera/American Express, "Don't leave home without it"

I don't have any good pics of the boat with that symmetrical chute flying so if you are so inclined, that would be great. This is it's first year flying.
 
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Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
So help me understand how to reasonably assess the shape and worthiness of my sails. Is it reasonable to look at the shape and if it is only curved in a vertical direction and not cupped in both directions that it is OK? I can certainly allow for the twist in both sails when I look at them and I can change the depth but I think in a big picture way the foil should really have depth as the shape. Hopefully this makes sense!
 
Jul 11, 2016
8
Serendipity 43 La Cruz Mex (Seattle reg.)
My recommendation is get a new, roller furling, genoa with a foam luff which helps the shape when partially furled. Have a UV cover sewn on it. Get a sail with maximum permitted sail area. This will cover you in the light stuff. With the foam luff you can roll it in for windier days, to a point. For increased durability, take the sail down when not in use. My wife and I, (age 72 & 67) sail our 43t sloop without roller furling OR HANKS. It has a luff foil system normally found on race boats. We change headsails during racing, of course, and even while cruising, just the two of us. it is not that hard. Yes we have to fold sails when we get back to the dock. It's OK to do a little work. We have a smaller sail (85%) which we normally put up when cruising and it is fine; easier to tack, easier to put up and down, easier to fold later. And fast enough for cruising.

I am not saying you have to be as hard core as we are, but just step up and do the required extra effort.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,774
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Looks kinda like this. The good ones will have intertwined drawstrings running the length that keep the thing from flapping in the breeze.

View attachment 141100
When we built our genoa, we use the sew-on UV Dacron because it much lighter than Sunbrella but it started to rot out after several years. In talking to SailRite I found that they had received a bad batch of the non-sticky backed UV Dacron and mine was not the only premature failure. As a result, they were no longer stocking the fabric. That left me with three logical choices. change to Sunbrella, use Insignia sticky back Dacron or use a sock. Sunbrella was too heavy, Insignia could not be removed so when it failed I would need to add another layer. I designed to remove the UV protection and make a sock. My 1st effort used the standard design with the exterior lacing to snug it up. After one good wind storm the laces cut right through the Sunbrella. On the 2nd sock I used Sur Last fabric which has much greater abrasion resistance than Sunbrella. I made it without the lacing because that is what caused the failure with the strings cutting clear through the cloth. This design fluttered terribly in any amount of wind which we discovered the first time we used it. In the middle of the night it was causing the whole boat to shack so badly that I went up on deck and used my spare jib halyard to spiral wrap the whole thing. PROBLEM SOLVED!

The sail performs much better in light conditions without the UV protection.
 
Jul 11, 2016
8
Serendipity 43 La Cruz Mex (Seattle reg.)
You are going to a lot of trouble to leave your sail up all the time. Why not just take it down on the way back to the marina, fold it and bag it, and get it out next time, and put it up when you need it. It will last a lot longer, and with a little exercise, so will you.
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
I am taking my sails in to the sail makers next week for an assessment of their condition. Assuming they tell me they are worn out, I am still wrestling with the laminate sail upgrade and the issues around them. Many of the threads are older and so quite likely the issues raised are not relevant today and the technology is evolving. Assuming I am going to leave the sail(s) on the furler(s), how much extra performance can I expect from higher tech sails? I understand I need to up my game in tactics and trimming, but I want to invest wisely as far as the sails go. Our biggest challenge lies in the light wind zone as it seems the name Windless Wednesday is well earned where I race.
Not looking for guarantees, or panaceas for that matter, just looking to make the best investment for our little team!

Dan
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Any high-tech sail you want can be made for a furler. End of story.
Some very high-tech One Design race boats have furlers as standard - The new J/121, Class 40, and the Volvo and Vendee boats to name some.
Jackdaw, what are you using on Bluejay, and why? Sailmaker is saying anything high tech is not going to matter much in terms of sailing speed and pointing, but I see you saying 50/50 cruising and sailing but you have some pretty high tech sails on there! As an extra question, do you have 3 sets of telltales on that jib? what number would you put on if you were ordering again?
Dan
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jackdaw, what are you using on Bluejay, and why? Sailmaker is saying anything high tech is not going to matter much in terms of sailing speed and pointing, but I see you saying 50/50 cruising and sailing but you have some pretty high tech sails on there! As an extra question, do you have 3 sets of telltales on that jib? what number would you put on if you were ordering again?
Dan
Its an aramid laminate. High tech laminates will hold their shape longer and better than dacron. And stretch less in puffs. This is will stay fast, help the both point, and stay upright in breeze longer. So its faster.

Lifes too short to sail with crappy sails! ;^) Anyway, with care I get 5+ years out of them, so not bad.

The jib has two different sets of tell tails. The three sets of three woolies on each side are for the trimmer. His/her job is to get the sheeting angle set so they all break at the same time. That way the whole sail (top to bottom) is in trim. The big nylon ones in the clear window are my driving telltails. I watch only those when we go upwind. Easy to see, even in glare. I'd always do this setup.

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Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Jackdaw, I see by your picture earlier in this thread that your foresail has a very different cut (panel layout) than mine or the other boat in the photo. I think yours is a mitre cut and I am looking for input on this topic. The sail I am considering is a direct replacement of mine in either a dacron or cruising laminate from Neil Pryde but I have not considered the cut of the sail. Any input on this element?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jackdaw, I see by your picture earlier in this thread that your foresail has a very different cut (panel layout) than mine or the other boat in the photo. I think yours is a mitre cut and I am looking for input on this topic. The sail I am considering is a direct replacement of mine in either a dacron or cruising laminate from Neil Pryde but I have not considered the cut of the sail. Any input on this element?
Laminated sailcloth is usual much stronger (by design) in one direction than the other, and is usually designed with narrow semi-rectangular panels that place the laminate along this loadpath, aka the direction of the load on the sails, which emanate from the corners.

Regular dacron sailcloth is not much better one way or the other, so this does not matter. Therefore, dacron sails are normally cut 'broadseamed' in large panels that minimize cutting and sewing.
 
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Jun 8, 2004
2,841
Catalina 320 Dana Point
This is a laminate by Ullman, this pic shows the directionality (how's that for vocabulary) of the material and the way panels are oriented. I need to add about 18" of jib track to properly use and trim this beast, but for now it's an advantage at 10kts. and under of breeze. I use an ATN jib sleeve for UV protection, people I sail with use the same set-up, only takes a couple minutes to get the sleeve on or off and I prefer it to the weight of a Sunbrella sunband.
 

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Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
North is quoting a 3DI with 3 short vertical battens in the leach, and I have never had a jib with battens.
Any thoughts?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
North is quoting a 3DI with 3 short vertical battens in the leach, and I have never had a jib with battens.
Any thoughts?
Any sail with positive roach has to have battens to keep the leech from fluttering due to unsupported sailcloth. That's why all mains (except some furling mains) do.

Under all rating rules, genoas are not allowed to have positive roach, and in most cases you would not want it anyway because of the spreaders.

Jibs (non overlapping, or less than say 105%) ARE allowed to have positive roach, to maximize sail area. It will add about 5% to the sail area. The battens are set on a slight angle off vertical so they roll.

If you do this, you MUST have your sail professionally measured, or it will likely hit your lower diagonals. If it is not measured, typically the sailmaker will cut it smaller so it does not, and you give back your 5% gain! Jibs without battens will have (like genoas do) have negative roach (hollow) cut into the leech, and that help it not hit the diagonals.
 
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Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Wow Jackdaw, that was a lot to digest. I currently have the mast down till spring so measuring is not possible till then. Given the 115% nature of this sail I guess I cannot have positive roach in any case!
Are the battens a help even with zero roach or do they just add weight? If they could minimize leach line tension I think that is going to aid flow and reduce hook.
Many many thanks for all that info,
Dan
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?media/o-34-close-hauled.26171/
Link to my site picture. That's our 95% jib, but with the three vertical battens it has approx. the drive in the all-important upper part of about a 110%. It furls just like a regular sail.
This is a composite NorthSails sail.
On our boat it sheets to some short track inside the shroud base, and the boat points quite high.

It does an amazing job of powering up the boat, and is effective from about 8 kts up past 25 kts (at which point I put a reef in the main).
This replaced a 135, and we wish we had made this change a lot sooner.
Tacking it is really really easy, too.
 
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Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
I bought a North Sails NorDac Jib with a Dacron UV cover installed and just put it on my furler. The sail is bigger everywhere they could make it bigger and it is so great upwind that we have gone from back of the pack to head (or almost so far) of the pack. Pointing higher and going faster, all that I wanted!
Taking the hollow out of the leech made vertical battens necessary but after the install I don't even think about them!
Racier headsail indeed!