PHRF conflicts with LWL -

[agprice22]

Ha! I am an LCSW in private practice. Of course you and I see the point in a humanist approach.
It will take a lot of energy to change the rating system from an equipment to a humanist perspective.
Me? I just want the fastest boat I can get! (Or that my wife will let me have) I don't need no stinking RATING! I know who crossed the line first, and I will endeavor to win in any boat I have. Every time I am tacking up the lake with someone... I am racing. I don't tell my wife, but she knows. I am calculating a win. In the end, I still have to say, "yeah but" when I cannot catch someone. I calculate the difference in waterline, sail area, weight, etc. and say, "yeah, he stayed ahead, but..." because, for now, equipment is still a factor.

By the way, have you still not gotten in?

The above photo is my Telstar I am restoring. I hope to have it ready next week!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Finally, it is a fair question to ask why am I pursuing the handicapping issue, especially since I no longer seriously compete and haven't for a few years. There are 3 reasons, first to honor my friend Dick White and his quest; second, because I think PHRF is flawed and it is hurting the sport; and third perhaps most rewarding is that I think this an interesting intellectual question with exciting possibilities.

Dave, those are fair and honest reasons for pursuing a change in the system. I'd guess that you would need to convince some fairly large racing organization to make a trial run at this. Of course nobody really wants to go thru the headache of making wholesale changes to an already organized system. I wonder if it is feasible to basically create a shadow organization that would score real PHRF races based on a revised handicapping system to see how it plays out. Perhaps, you could introduce a new handicap system without disrupting the existing PHRF system. After a trial for a few years, members would have the ability to evaluate.

 

[Daveinet]

I have a completely different take on PHRF. But first I'd like to respond to a few comments. Comparing sailing to golf is an unrealistic comparison. In Golf, the courses are fixed, with few variables. The variability in the handicap means the golfer competes more against the course than other golfers. In contrast, a sailing course is different every time you sail it. You can't really race against the course. The only viable measurement is against other sailors. Trying to adapt the concept of a golf handicap to a sailing handicap is too difficult to have a consistent measurement.
My different take on PHRF is that I don't like the concept of a handicap at all. You end up competing against the handicap, rather than other racers. To me, if the handicap levels the playing field, there is little reward for innovation. The standard hull shape has not improved in 100 years. There is comments comparing sailing in the US compared to sailing in OZ. Guess what, Oz build boats that plane up wind. Speed is what build excitement. Beer can races are like street racers. No one knows what tricks you have under the hood. Half the fun is the surprise of competing against the next guy, when no one really knows what you got. I'm a bit of a automotive speed freak. I have a high performance motorhome, which may seem a little insane, but its kind of fun to smoke other cars off the light. That keeps the novelty going. I say forget the handicap. It makes for a lot of slow unexciting boats.

 

[Jackdaw]

My different take on PHRF is that I don't like the concept of a handicap at all. You end up competing against the handicap, rather than other racers. To me, if the handicap levels the playing field, there is little reward for innovation. The standard hull shape has not improved in 100 years. There is comments comparing sailing in the US compared to sailing in OZ. Guess what, Oz build boats that plane up wind. Speed is what build excitement. Beer can races are like street racers. No one knows what tricks you have under the hood. Half the fun is the surprise of competing against the next guy, when no one really knows what you got. I'm a bit of a automotive speed freak. I have a high performance motorhome, which may seem a little insane, but its kind of fun to smoke other cars off the light. That keeps the novelty going. I say forget the handicap. It makes for a lot of slow unexciting boats.

I don't see your point in all of this. What are you suggesting?

 

[dlochner]

I have a completely different take on PHRF. But first I'd like to respond to a few comments. Comparing sailing to golf is an unrealistic comparison. In Golf, the courses are fixed, with few variables. The variability in the handicap means the golfer competes more against the course than other golfers. In contrast, a sailing course is different every time you sail it. You can't really race against the course. The only viable measurement is against other sailors. Trying to adapt the concept of a golf handicap to a sailing handicap is too difficult to have a consistent measurement.
My different take on PHRF is that I don't like the concept of a handicap at all. You end up competing against the handicap, rather than other racers. To me, if the handicap levels the playing field, there is little reward for innovation. The standard hull shape has not improved in 100 years. There is comments comparing sailing in the US compared to sailing in OZ. Guess what, Oz build boats that plane up wind. Speed is what build excitement. Beer can races are like street racers. No one knows what tricks you have under the hood. Half the fun is the surprise of competing against the next guy, when no one really knows what you got. I'm a bit of a automotive speed freak. I have a high performance motorhome, which may seem a little insane, but its kind of fun to smoke other cars off the light. That keeps the novelty going. I say forget the handicap. It makes for a lot of slow unexciting boats.

The kind of racing you are referring to is available to sailors. There are some classes that are pretty open in terms of what is allowed. The Moth class comes quickly to mind. It is a development class where the goal to experiment within some parameters to get the fastest boat. The class was one of the first to go with foils.

You might find this competition more to your liking.

Participating in races like this is a young person's sport, something I am definitely not.

 

[jon hansen]

the sydney 18' race had one rule. the boat can be no longer 18 ft. started over 150 yrs ago

 

[kloudie1]

Gonna be hard to put 4 days worth of beer and steaks on the kite/foiling board..?

 

[walt]

I have a high performance motorhome,

Now were talking real racing!!!

 

[Jackdaw]

The kind of racing you are referring to is available to sailors. There are some classes that are pretty open in terms of what is allowed. The Moth class comes quickly to mind. It is a development class where the goal to experiment within some parameters to get the fastest boat. The class was one of the first to go with foils.

You might find this competition more to your liking.

Participating in races like this is a young person's sport, something I am definitely not.

A couple of things. Development classes like the Moth are not what anyone is is talking about, thinking about, or wants to do. These are specialized racing machines tweaked by people with ME degrees. Nothing like anything any of us do.

As for the video, that's not competition at all. Its a test to see what platform is fastest and where they stand against each other. Now they know, and 90% of the time they will finish in that order. The sailors will not find that to be a 'fun' competition to sail over and over. The point is people want a reasonable, aspirational chance of getting good enough to win, on an agreed base of a boat/platform that allows some reasonably accurate handicapping of the performance potential of the boat.

 

[dlochner]

The point is people want a reasonable, aspirational chance of getting good enough to win, on an agreed base of a boat/platform that allows some reasonably accurate handicapping of the performance potential of the boat.

Absolutely. PHRF comes close, I think it could be done better.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The point is people want a reasonable, aspirational chance of getting good enough to win, on an agreed base of a boat/platform that allows some reasonably accurate handicapping of the performance potential of the boat.

Agreed that the aspiration of getting good enough to win is important, but the emphasis that there must be a chance to win is overdone in my opinion. There are so many reasons to get involved in the competitive aspect of a sport that are potentially more important than winning trophies (or a trophy). I've talked to Sue about sailboat racing, and she can't seem to get over the thought that it would simply be embarrassing to not be any good at it. To me, finishing in the back wouldn't damage my ego one iota. I've spent so much of my young and adult life in competitive sports that I realize how rare it is to actually be the ONE person out of hundreds of competitors that actually gets to win. In ski racing, as an adult recreation skier, I raced for the social involvement, to continuously sharpen my skills as a skier, and to heighten my interest in the sport. When I finally reached a level of competition where my opportunity to land on the top of the podium was reduced to virtually nil, I was most satisfied. I felt that I was at least in an elite status among competitors, where the background and athletic ability of 100's of ski racers was simply better than mine. I guess I could say that my ego was more gratified when I was racing within a peer group where I had no chance of winning, than it would have been had I entered only races that I could have a better than even chance of winning. So, I think my position is that we often place way to much emphasis on needing to win in order to satisfy our ego. It's simply not necessary. It is feasible to enjoy sailboat racing without ever having a chance at winning, so the fairness of handicaps really doesn't need to matter.

 

[Daveinet]

These are specialized racing machines tweaked by people with ME degrees. Nothing like anything any of us do...

Lack of engineering never seemed to deter the street racers. If you want to win, you study a lot. Plenty of information on the net. And that is where innovation comes in. Great ideas do not always come from engineers. No one really hot rods sailboats. Folks wonder why there is so little new blood in the sport. But they want racing to be a bunch of old guys racing overweight cruisers. Current racing has little space for the young guy with a creative mind who is willing to invest thought into new ideas. Any great new idea is nullified by the handicap. Where is the fun in that?

 

[dlochner]

I wonder if it is feasible to basically create a shadow organization that would score real PHRF races based on a revised handicapping system to see how it plays out.

Scott, we tried to go down this road. The article that reads like a dissertation proposal was sent to PHRF-Lake Ontario with a request to provide data from the various clubs on the lake. We had some preliminary data that was promising, we wanted to try it out on a larger data set. They declined to provide the data.

There are so many reasons to get involved in the competitive aspect of a sport that are potentially more important than winning trophies (or a trophy).

When I finally reached a level of competition where my opportunity to land on the top of the podium was reduced to virtually nil, I was most satisfied.

It is feasible to enjoy sailboat racing without ever having a chance at winning, so the fairness of handicaps really doesn't need to matter.

I don't disagree with any of these statements, especially about the personal motivation. In lots of organized adult recreational leagues participants can choose the level of competition. Softball leagues often have several divisions ranging from highly skilled to those with developing skills (putting it politely). Participants play for fame and glory in league that matches their ability. If only that could happen in sailing at the local level, but often the demographics just aren't there to support more than a couple of racing divisions. My club is in a town of about 16,000 with about 150,000 in the county and about an hour's drive from Syracuse. In our heyday a few years ago we could get up to 25 boats in 4 racing divisions on the course, now we're lucky to get 8 or 10 in 2 divisions. We send divisions out with 2 boats registered. The fleet declined for a number of reasons, one reason being that the fleet was dominated one or two sailors. If you live in an area where you have many choices, you can pick the club and racing fleet that matches your interests and skills, but when there is only one game in town, handicaps matter.

Another real life example. J24 sailors tend race only one design. At least in PHRF-LO the OD races are not included in the data used to assign handicaps. This causes a significant problem, as the only J24 that are racing PHRF tend to be the less skilled and less competitive sailors who are not racing OD and going to regattas etc. As a result the handicap is not at all reflective of the boat's true handicap. When the OD guys sail in PHRF, they consistently clean up for 2 reasons, a lot are good sailors and the handicap does not reflect the J24's real speed potential. Again at my club, the 24s compete with other boats that are more fairly rated because there are not enough other boats to fill out a class.

I know my club is not alone in facing either or both of these situations. An individual handicap could go along way towards resolving these issues.

One last thought, racing sailboats with one's spouse does not always contribute to domestic tranquility. Been there, done that.

 

[Rick D]

You guys do have cruising classes, right? Brought to SoCal in the eighties. Uses PHRF as a base with adjustments for go slow/go fast items. Some regattas do simple adjustments, others more complex ones (tending to the arbitrary). It has saved more than a few regattas from extinction.