Labor Lament!

[Jtcf78911]

Hi all. New sailor in need of some "rational" guidance regarding labor hours charged for the following repair work:

- Replace engine kill line/switch. I have an O'Day 28 with an M12 Universal engine. No question the line had seen better days and that replacement was needed. What I can't assess is how the job would take almost 5 hours to complete. The line is readily accessed and to this newbie it looks like a two hour job max for someone with experience. Yeah...it could take me 4 hours...but I lack tools and experience. What am I missing here?

- Reason for boat in the shop was lack of power and engine dying when placed in gear. I knew they were struggling to identity the problem as at one point they were even suggesting that I had a "tired" engine and that replacement might be required. After calling in a local diesel engine expert (suggested by me) it was ultimately determined that I had a clogged exhaust elbow - made sense and was indeed the fix needed. So I'm staring at the bill and I see almost 15 hours of "diagnostic" labor and a note that they "waived" 6 hours of additional labor incurred. I actually don't doubt that they spent this time, or possibly more, in trying to figure out the mystery. That said, I'm not sure it should have taken the time it did to diagnose the problem. Can it really take two days of continuous investigation (or 15 hours over several days) to flesh out this type of problem?

So even for a newbie like me the labor on both efforts above feels plain unreasonable. Maybe they think I'm just relieved not to have the expense of a new engine (which I am)? Am I oversimplifying the effort required for these jobs? Other than an outright dispute what are my options in this situation?

All advice appreciated - except do it yourself or find a new mechanic - as neither was really an option (long story you don't want to hear).

Tx.

Tom O'Day 28

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Tom,

Hopefully, you will learn who to trust or not to trust over time. If in the yard & they could not find the problem,
Never go back there again. You should over time talk to owners to see who has better knowledge, work & price.
There's nothing complicated in troubleshooting a small block marine diesel if a bonafide mechanic.

The kill cable replacement should not take more than 2 hours if that. I ran mine in less than 30 min. I coupled the new cable to the old for fishing it thru.

But yea, you were ripped off. Try complaining to your local/city better business bureau. They helped me re-coup money one time when I was a newbie.

CR

 

[Jtcf78911]

Thanks. I haven't paid yet so weighing my options. Getting a lawyer involved seems like a break even adventure at best.

Tom O'Day 28

 

[capta]

I'm a little confused. You took your boat to a place where you needed to have them call a mechanic to suggest a solution to a problem and left the boat in their hands for more repairs?
Why not stick with the guy who knew what he was doing? Remove the boat from the incompetents or bring the expert in as an outside contractor.
I don't know, maybe I've got it all wrong?

 

[Jtcf78911]

It's a long story how I got there...wasn't by choice... I don't want to focus on what I should have done - I now have plenty of 20-20 hindsight. Tx. T.

 

[capta]

If the boat is still in their hands and you can't convince them to work with you for a better price, you are screwed. Boat yards can refuse to launch until payment in full is made, legally. Your best recourse then would be small claims court, after the fact.
If you've got the boat back you might be able to get another mechanic or yard to give you an estimate, pay that figure to the incompetents who can then seek the difference however they please.

 

[31seahorse]

No matter who is doing the work the job often takes at least twice as long as one (the owner) might expect. I do not know your repair skill level, but I do know mine after 20+ years of boat ownership that has included a lot of DIM work. (That stands for Do It Myself work!)

In my case I need to factor in most of the following: discovering the problem, asking my friends for their opinion, trying to get them to look at the problem, checking the SBO site for possible causes and repair suggestions, making a reasonable plan of action, explaining to my wife why it isn't fixed yet, going for parts, climbing into and out of the boat for tools, searching for the parts I brought with me last time I worked on the project, finding the first aid kit to get a bandaid for my bleeding finger (arm, head, or other body part) , scrunching into whatever part of the boat is housing the broken part, squiggling out again to get the tool that is in the cockpit, searching for the screw (nut, bolt, gizmo) I just dropped, dealing with a part that has been in place since Noah placed it there , using PB Blaster on the part , cleaning PB Blaster off my glasses, holding my breath until the part finally comes off its attachment point, going to the marine store for the gasket that did not come with the part I needed, probably going again to buy one or more replacement fasteners because the old ones are "buggered" up, taking a lunch break, dealing with the age-old problem of being able to see the part or being able to reach it, being able to breathe while I am reaching for/touching/working on the part, talking to a nearby boat owner (and perhaps getting caught up in his project when he asks me what I thing of his problem!), and finally going home tired and bruised needing to return another day to work on the simple job.

The process above does not even include cleaning up after the job and washing the clothes that were messed up during the "crawling" I mentioned.

Contacting a lawyer would not help! He/She probably couldn't fix your boat either.

 

[Jtcf78911]

I have the boat...they have no money...yet...

 

[Jtcf78911]

Your repair experience sounds much like my own...kindred DIM souls. Tx. I needed a bit of humor. Tom O'Day 28

 

[Ken13559]

My suggestions:
1. Try not to sour relationship with yard even if they're incompetent. They will come in useful in future somehow.
2. If it won't break your bank or cause you to bleed to death, take it as lesson learnt.
3. Friends and forum are there to help for free. Use them.
4. Get your hands dirty to save money and enrich yourself. Literally and figuratively speaking.
5. Tools and knowledge are your best investment. Just get on with it.

KenY

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Contacting a lawyer would not help! He/She probably couldn't fix your boat either.

Maybe not, but I think their hourly rates may be a little cheaper than that of some yards .

 

[bawlmer]

Agreed with Ken. If you are into sailing, go all in. Invest in some tools. They don't even have to be good tools. Harbor freight would be the best place to start. Use the internet and especially this forum before you call anyone. It has saved me thousands in boat repair costs. As for your issue you should settle up with the mechanic and be on your way. I used to own a service company and no matter how smart you are it sometimes takes you a really long time to troubleshoot something. If you do it yourself it is a learning experience. Unfortunately if a "pro" is doing it he is getting paid and is running the meter. It sounds like the company proctored the bill already. Maybe you can sit him down and negotiate it a little further. If you have a lot of money and very little time then don't use this mechanic anymore and find a better one. Just my .02.

 

[capta]

Maybe not, but I think their hourly rates may be a little cheaper than that of some yards .

Hey, even free labor isn't of much value if they can't figure out what the problem is. In this business I've found it's not so much about price, but reliability and skill.
I'd much rather pay a skilled tradesman $200 an hour to do the job PROPERLY in an hour than an incompetent $25 an hour and 5 days later still have the problem.
I used to fly my refer tech to the Vi from Fla to repair the A/C's or refer systems, rather than use the local bandit. In the end it was A LOT cheaper and I didn't miss charters or have unhappy customers because one or the other wasn't working.
When we burnt a bearing on an EMD 12/567 (same as a train engine) on a tug, we spent 4 full days trying to take out one power pack (piston, rod, rings and sleeve). Company finally wised up and flew a team in from Detroit. In less than 8 hours they had the other 11 power packs out and were welding in the boring bar to reset the Babbit bearing.
Figure the days we would not have been operational (tugs usually made a buck a horsepower per day back then) versus the cost of the professionals and it was no contest at all. They knew ALL the shortcuts and tricks and we were operational in the time it took us to just get out one power pack.

 

[LakeMurraySailor]

Hi JTCF! I've read about your experience and I'm just a tad curious as to what their hourly rate was! All you can do now is try to make a deal with them!

Good luck, you can do this!

 

[Jtcf78911]

$85....

 

[NotCook]

In my case I need to factor in most of the following:

LOL! Is all that billable?!

JTCF: If it were me, I'd probably at least politely ask them about the 5 hours. Heck, they might even agree to adjust that, too.

 

[Jtcf78911]

Thanks gents. All good advice. The debate is probably over $1,000...not small change. I'll take the high road and see if he'll be reasonable and cut me some slack. I've actually performed a good bit of the work on the boat and enjoyed the efforts. This one just a bit beyond my current skill set and use of the yard almost wasn't optional, i.e. closest known marina I could be towed to. I just hate be taken advantage of... Maybe I'll also visit the town better business bureau to see if any traction might be gained. Tom O'Day 28.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Can it really take two days of continuous investigation (or 15 hours over several days) to flesh out this type of problem? So even for a newbie like me the labor on both efforts above feels plain unreasonable. Maybe they think I'm just relieved not to have the expense of a new engine (which I am)? Am I oversimplifying the effort required for these jobs? Other than an outright dispute what are my options in this situation?

All advice appreciated - except do it yourself or find a new mechanic - as neither was really an option (long story you don't want to hear).
Tx.
Tom O'Day 28

You probably know, the 15-hr labor charge refers to man-hours; as in 3 guys "working" 5 hr each on the problem during the same or overlapping interval(s). It's possible to take that many man-hours to do an engine or other boat job where the problem is not clearly evident. Just an example; I had to replace my starter that burned up last year (a DIM job). First--get the old one off but then I first had to buy a new (metric) wrench that would work in the space I had. There's nearly an hour there counting travel time. Take the unit to a rebuild shop. Where? First I had to find one that could (and would) do the job. OK-two trips there and back just to talk to the owner who was in the field a lot, and then drop off the part. Oh-- then I had to discover why the starter burned up. Talk to an engine mechanic and get the possibilities. Sticking ignition switch? Well, I'd better have a new one just in case. What does it look like the parts guy asks?--there is more than one version for my boat-oh, I don't know, so I'll buy both versions "to save time." Back to the rebuild shop--the owner's not in (can't get on cell phone)--helper does not know when the starter will be rebuilt--parts are on order, does not know when they will arrive.... Finally, get the rebuild. Owner has to take 30 min to tell me all he knows about diesel engine starters. Helper can't find the ticket and box of old parts for another 10 min. Finally, back to the boat. How to test the switch? Call the mechanic--not in--recording says "will call back" , etc. Finally track him down; get coaching. Half hour later, it's not the switch. OK--install rebuilt starter. Test in boat. OK, all good. Take the unused switches back to the dealer in another town 30 miles away, etc. All told, probably a day (ca. 8 hr) of time spent plus the money spent.

Can't assume that the yard guys have seen and solved every boat problem that comes to them; some are new-like yours. It's better for them to take time and care on diagnostics rather than to f-up the owner's boat or engine. Anything they break they get to fix for "free." This is not necessarily incompetence--it might be "learning curve."

 

[Roland5048]

When your boat is in the yard, you have to be right there watching all the time. When I had my compression post support replaced, they had two guys working on it at $100 an hour per worker. One guy doing all the work, the other guy watching and handing him tools that were all within reach. After I mentioned this to the yard manager, they charged me for one guy. I go there because they do good work but, you gotta stay on top of it.

 

[Hello Below]

When your boat is in the yard, you have to be right there watching all the time.

Why because . . .

Talk to an engine mechanic and get the possibilities.

Call the mechanic--not in--recording says "will call back" , etc. Finally track him down; get coaching.

Keep in mind that free help to you from the mechanic is costing somebody. Their meter is running 8 hours a day.

This is not necessarily incompetence--it might be "learning curve."

Then the charge out rate should drop down proportionately.

I'd much rather pay a skilled tradesman $200 an hour to do the job PROPERLY in an hour than an incompetent $25 an hour and 5 days later still have the problem.

Bingo!