NEW SAILS?

Oct 31, 2012
464
Hunter 2008 H25 Lake Wabamun
I'm going to go with a similar design with a fat-head mainsail to take advantage of the B&R rig, as well as vertical battens in the headsail.
Gota love that B&R rig and large roach mains. My new fat-head main gave me around 8% more area than the stock sail. To maintain balance, a slightly lager jib was needed. Vertical jib battens got me part of the way there and the rest was accomplished by adding length to the "I" measurement (which I had room to do).
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
GPL Lite Skin is made by Dimension Polyant. DP makes a few sailcloths with Lite Skin as the exposed part of the finished product. GPL Graph X (with carbon and technora internal fibers) and Carbon Sport and another fairly new sailcloth (I forgot the name) all have Lite Skin. Lite Skin is a taffeta like product that can also be applied to one or both sides of membrane/string sails when they are being built. The attached pdf file describes Lite Skin and how some very thin mylar is part of the make-up.
https://www.dimension-polyant.com/portfolio/gpl-lite-skin/?lang=en
I get all that. I was asking if you were sure if the lite skin material is filaments on a Mylar film.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
I get all that. I was asking if you were sure if the lite skin material is filaments on a Mylar film.
@Jackdaw,
Lite Skin, a Trademark of Dimension Polyant, is made of randomly oriented polyester fibres lightly glued toether in a composite. LiteSkin does not include a polyester film (aka mylar). It contains neither polyester film (mylar), nor carbon fibres, nor aramid fibres (eg technora or twaron).

LiteSkin (TM) is dark grey and "looks fast." and resists water absorbtion and abrasion. It's really good at resisting wrinkling and helps to reduce the shrinkage that laminate sails are prone to. (typical laminate sail cloth shrinks about 2% in the first year - did you know that?)

Almost by definition, cruising sails don't have carbon fibers in them. Carbon is too brittle and breaks down in two or three or four seasons. It depends on how much you clog them and how many hours you put on them.

Cruising laminates have been made with polyester mesh scrims between mylar films for the past 20+ years. Polyester scrims are long lasting, not brittle, and contribute greatly to improved shape stability compared to traditional cross-cut woven dacron sails.

I would hazard a guess that UK's CX laminate is a private-label version of DP's DCX cruising laminate, which consists of a a polyester scrim/mesh laminated between mylar (polyester film). Both these laminates are for building radial cut, paneled sails. (not loadpath "string" sails), (But you'd have to ask UK directly, "what is the scrim mesh made of", because I couldn't fnd any references on their website so it's just an educated guess).

DCX is a very nice cruising laminate and has been around for a long time. What's new is that you can get it in grey, instead of white. DCX is very comparable in performance and price to Contenders product CDX, which is also a cruising laminate with a polyester scrim.

Adding LiteSkin or a grey taffeta on the outer side layer makes it look like a carbon sail, but doesn't boost the performance a whole lot.

I would say that the cruising laminates with polyester scrims are comparable in terms of shape performance to tri-radial warp oriented woven polyester when new. Warp oriented radial dacrons will stretch a little faster than polyester scrim laminates, but they will outlast any laminate with mylar film by far.

Grey color doesn't mean there's any carbon or aramid fibers in the sails. It's just a color that can command a small premium in price. Polyester/dacron fibers can be black or white, sandwiched between clear or grey colored mylar, with a shiney or a matt finish. Or black fibres could be carbon or black aramids, (such as twaron or technora). But you'll pay more for black and grey sails, because the manufacturers can get a premium price for them.

Judy B
Semi-retired Sailmaker
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
@Jackdaw,
Lite Skin, a Trademark of Dimension Polyant, is made of randomly oriented polyester fibres lightly glued toether in a composite. LiteSkin does not include a polyester film (aka mylar). It contains neither polyester film (mylar), nor carbon fibres, nor aramid fibres (eg technora or twaron).

LiteSkin (TM) is dark grey and "looks fast." and resists water absorbtion and abrasion. It's really good at resisting wrinkling and helps to reduce the shrinkage that laminate sails are prone to. (typical laminate sail cloth shrinks about 2% in the first year - did you know that?)

Almost by definition, cruising sails don't have carbon fibers in them. Carbon is too brittle and breaks down in two or three seasons.

Cruising laminates have been made with polyester mesh scrims between mylar films for the past 20+ years. Polyester scrims are long lasting, not brittle, and contribute greatly to improved shape stability compared to traditional cross-cut woven dacron sails.

I would hazard a guess that UK's CX laminate is a private-label version of DP's DCX cruising laminate, which consists of a a polyester scrim/mesh laminated between mylar (polyester film). Both these laminates are for building radial cut, paneled sails. (not loadpath "string" sails), (But you'd have to ask UK directly, "what is the scrim mesh made of", because I couldn't fnd any references on their website so it's just an educated guess).

DCX is a very nice cruising laminate and has been around for a long time. What's new is that you can get it in grey, instead of white. DCX is very comparable in performance and price to Contenders product CDX, which is also a cruising laminate with a polyester scrim.

Adding LiteSkin or a grey taffeta makes it look like a carbon sail, but doesn't boost the performance a whole lot. It's a very nice cruising laminate and has been around for a long time.

I would say that the cruising laminates with polyester scrims are comparable in terms of shape performance to tri-radial warp oriented woven polyester when new. Warp oriented radial dacrons will stretch a little faster than polyester scrim laminates, but they will outlast any laminate with mylar film by far.

Grey color doesn't mean there's any carbon or aramid fibers in the sails. It's just a color that can command a small premium in price. Polyester/dacron fibers can be black or white, sandwiched between clear or grey colored mylar, with a shiney or a matt finish. Or black fibres could be carbon or black aramids, (such as twaron or technora). But you'll pay more for black and grey sails, because the manufacturers can get a premium price for them.

Judy B
Semi-retired Sailmaker
Judy,
Thanks for all the detailed info!

Question, are you sure that Lite Skin is not a laminate? I thought I read that it was, and I’m holding a sample (GPL14 LS) that I got from my Sailmaker next to one of their string laminates. While it doesn’t show super-well in the picture, in person you can absolutely see (and feel!) the string structure between the skins. It’s almost as if the light skin were acting as a taffeta. I agree, I doubt there’s a Mylar layer. I can pull a part with my fingers.

051F155A-8DAD-4BB0-81BB-C8D10EE4AB10.jpeg


PS - totally agree about the shrinkage. Best example of that for the crew... have them wad up a piece of 8.5x11 paper. Then straight it out flat, and lay it over a fresh piece.......
 
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JRT

.
Feb 14, 2017
2,037
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
Cool, stuff. Is there any functional need for /gray/black cruising laminate sails or is it just a color to look cool? I looked at some cruising laminate sails but they were white, functionality was important, longevity also so would like to get 5-10 years out of them based on use.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Question, are you sure that Lite Skin is not a laminate?
It’s just a technical fine point.

By definition, Laminates have layers. They are not homogenous. Liteskin is a homogenous composite that is used as the outer layer in a laminated sailcloth.

In a strictly technical sense, LiteSkin is just the outer skin, by itself it does not have a layer of Mylar. LiteSkin is a direct substitute for taffeta skins. Liteskin provides superior UV protection compared to taffeta. (Taffeta is just a very light weigh version of woven polyester).

Liteskin is used as one layer in a laminated sail. made to be glued to a sailed consisting of a sandwich of Mylar (tm)film- fiber mesh -film. If you take some Carbon Sport (tm) laminate, and then glue lite skin (tm) to it, you have Carbon Sport Lite skin. (Tm) .

.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
It’s just a technical fine point.

By definition, Laminates have layers. They are not homogenous. Liteskin is a homogenous composite that is used as the outer layer in a laminated sailcloth.

In a strictly technical sense, LiteSkin is just the outer skin, by itself it does not have a layer of Mylar. LiteSkin is a direct substitute for taffeta skins. Liteskin provides superior UV protection compared to taffeta. (Taffeta is just a very light weigh version of woven polyester).

Liteskin is used as one layer in a laminated sail. made to be glued to a sailed consisting of a sandwich of Mylar (tm)film- fiber mesh -film if you take some Carbon Sport (tm) laminate, and then glue lite skin (tm) to it, you have Carbon Sport Lite skin. (Tm) .

.
Now I see what you are saying; we're in accord. DP does not help, they call 'Lite Skin' a product but it really is a product feature... they do not sell just the 'skin', and it creates a new product when they use it.
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Cool, stuff. Is there any functional need for /gray/black cruising laminate sails or is it just a color to look cool? I looked at some cruising laminate sails but they were white, functionality was important, longevity also so would like to get 5-10 years out of them based on use.
The short answer is this:
Crusing laminates are usually constructed of polyester mesh between two layers of Mylar (tm ) with an outer skin of woven polyester (Dacron (tm). A white cruising laminate from a first tier manufacturer will give you 5 - 10 years of service.

Sometimes black means that the sail is made from high performance aramid and carbon fibers. some times black means they added black dye to polyester.

Most super low stretch aramids are very susceptible to uv damage, in their pure state. Most of them are gold colors. If you add a small dose of carbon dust to an aramid, it becomes more uv resistant. And it looks grey or black .
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Cool, stuff. Is there any functional need for /gray/black cruising laminate sails or is it just a color to look cool? I looked at some cruising laminate sails but they were white, functionality was important, longevity also so would like to get 5-10 years out of them based on use.
One other comment beyond what Judy just said... sometimes 'cruising laminates are white because they are a traditional laminated (mylar/string/mylar) sandwich sail with thin dacron 'taffeta' layers glued to each side. The taffeta adds wear and flogging resistance with the cost of some added weight and cost. And also makes the sail white.
 
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Jan 12, 2016
268
Hunter 410 Ladysmith, BC
@Jackdaw,

Adding LiteSkin or a grey taffeta on the outer side layer makes it look like a carbon sail, but doesn't boost the performance a whole lot.

Grey color doesn't mean there's any carbon or aramid fibers in the sails. It's just a color that can command a small premium in price. Polyester/dacron fibers can be black or white, sandwiched between clear or grey colored mylar, with a shiney or a matt finish. Or black fibres could be carbon or black aramids, (such as twaron or technora). But you'll pay more for black and grey sails, because the manufacturers can get a premium price for them.

Judy B
Semi-retired Sailmaker
Our choice of this specific taffeta was not based on looks, but that locally it has been standing up the best against mildew, and moisture issues of all the cruising laminates. Especially for sailors that keep their sails on all year through the Canadian Wet Coast winter who want to be able to enjoy those quiet anchorages. We were looking for the toughest sail that still held it shape well for a long time, and weighed less than dacron. The tape drive sails were also considered but were just a little too much $$ for our budget.
 

jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
...
Most super low stretch aramids are very susceptible to uv damage, in their pure state. Most of them are gold colors. If you add a small dose of carbon dust to an aramid, it becomes more uv resistant. And it looks grey or black .
BTW - almost all materials that are dyed dark colors will have more UV resistance than their light-hued counterparts. Fabrics, rope, shock cord, plastics, etc.
 
Oct 31, 2012
464
Hunter 2008 H25 Lake Wabamun
BTW - almost all materials that are dyed dark colors will have more UV resistance than their light-hued counterparts. Fabrics, rope, shock cord, plastics, etc.
That’s good to know. Kinda like skin pigmentation.:)
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
UV resistance is an interesting topic of which this posting sent me off to do some research, I was thinking that the dark colors being more emissive would be effected by UV more than reflective surfaces but it seems that dark surfaces actually convert UV to heat which reduces the damaging effects of UV light when compared to materials of reflective (light colored) sail materials, who ah thunk.......
 

SG

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
I would suspect that the dark color ALSO helps because it keeps the UV a very thin surface effect rather than allowing additional degradation by penetration.