B&R Rig Tension

Jan 12, 2011
930
Hunter 410 full time cruiser
Recently had my mast on my 410 off. After it was reinstalled the tension seems a lot different (I had the rug inspected but I don't have a lot of faith in the rigger).

My lower stay V1 is a lot tighter than before (still within 15-20% of breaking strength) but the lower inner stay D1 seems a lot looser than before. I can't find anything on how tight D1 is suppose to be.

What is the tension others have?
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
have you sailed her yet? What do the turnbuckles look like on the leeward side? How about your mast? Straight, bent, out of column? Rake is right? Your spreaders look normal, horizontal or maybe slightly angled upward?
I'm not a big believer in the use of a gauge, I think performance is the telling factor, but if you are within the specs, you shouldn't have a problem.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Sep 11, 2011
392
Hunter 41AC Bayfield WI, Lake Superior
From the service manual. Might help.


TUNING THE H41 B&R RIG
PAGE 52
The easiest method for tuning the B&R rig is
to perform step one as follows before the
mast is stepped, with it lying aft side down
on two sawhorses. Begin with all rigging
slack. If the mast is already stepped, loosen
all the rigging, and then proceed to step
one.
1. Start with all the rigging slack. Then
induce the mast bend by tightening the
reverse diagonals (diamonds). Measure
the bend by tensioning a line or the main
halyard between the masthead and the
gooseneck. The maximum amount of
bend should be no more than 8”
[203mm] for the standard rig and no
more than 2” [50mm] for the furling
mast. Measured perpendicular from the
aft face of the mast to the halyard at the
deepest part of the bend. It can be less
than that based on the sail shape and
your own preference. The bend should
also be evenly distributed along the
mast to give a smooth shape. Keep in
mind that bending a furling mast may
make it more difficult to furl and will not
do much to flatten the sail as in a
standard rig. It is very important that
the mast also be straight from side to
side at this time. Tighten or loosen the
reverse diagonals to achieve this.
2. Step the mast with all shrouds attached
but with the turnbuckles completely
loosened (if the mast was not already
stepped).
3. Attach the jib halyard to a cleat on the
bow to support the mast in a raked
position (the masthead should be about
2’-0” [~6cm] behind the step). Attach
the verticals and tighten them until you
can just see the hole for the cotter pin
in the turnbuckle. Tighten the jib halyard
until you can attach the forestay. At
this point the masthead should be raked
so that a weight hung on the main
halyard hangs about 1’ behind the mast
step.
4. Use the main halyard to check that the
mast is centered from side to side. Pull
it tight and mark the halyard next to the
verticals chainplate. Now do the same
to the other side to see if the marks line
up. If not, tighten and/or loosen the
verticals until the marks line up. Once
the masthead is centered, begin
tightening the verticals until the
turnbuckles are approximately half
closed. While tightening the verticals
you may notice the bend in the mast
increasing. Now you can tighten the
lowers, which will tend to straighten the
lower part of the mast. Be sure to
tighten port and starboard sides evenly.
5. Now you should tighten the headstay
until it is approximately half closed as
well. This should induce the appropriate
amount of headstay tension. Never use
anything more than a pair of wrenches
to tighten your rigging. If you use an
extended piece of pipe on the handle of
a wrench you can over tighten the
rigging and do damage to the mast or
rigging.
6. On the Hunter 41 it is necessary to go
up the mast in a bosun’s chair to tighten
the number 2 diagonal shroud (D2 or
intermediate shroud). Always use
caution when “going aloft”. You should
always use a mountain climbing harness
or Bosun’s Chair intended for this use.
Always tie into the harness with the
halyard using a bowline and then secure
the shackle as a back up as the knot is
more reliable than a mechanical
fastener. The person hoisting you aloft
should keep the halyard stopper closed
to prevent falls. Good communication
between the two of you is also
important. Tighten the D2 until it has
just become tight and then add two
complete turns. While at the first
spreader, look up the back of the mast
to see if it is straight (rather than bent
from side to side). If it is not straight
then adjust the appropriate D2 to
straighten it.
7. Have the person on deck carefully lower
you. They should keep the halyard
wrapped at least twice around the
winch and should always have one hand
able to stop the halyard from running
free. Once on deck look up the back of
TUNING THE H41 B&R RIG
PAGE 53
the mast and see if it is straight (rather
than bent from side to side). If not then
adjust the lowers (D1) until it is.
8. If you have the standard rig you need to
attach the struts at this time. Attach
the lower end of the strut to the smaller
hole in the chainplate. Adjust the length
by turning the ball joint bearing in the
upper end of the strut until the holes in
the pin can be attached. It is normal to
have some play between the strut and
the chainplate and strut bracket
9. The final test is to go sailing in 10-15
knots of wind. If when sailing upwind,
the shrouds on the leeward side are
slack then tighten them to remove
about half the slack keeping note of the
number of turns. Then tack and do the
same to the other side. Do this until you
are happy with the tension and the
leeward side does not get loose when
the boat is heeled. Now sight up the
mast to be sure it is still relatively
straight from side to side. If it is not
then adjust to appropriate rigging to
correct it. For example: if the mast is
straight until the upper spreader and
then hooks to the windward side then
you will have to revisit steps 6 and 7
above. Remember to always tighten the
leeward shroud, tack and tighten the
new leeward shroud the same amount.
This prevents damage to the
turnbuckles and is also much easier to
do. Keep in mind it is also possible to
have something too tight such as a
diagonal shroud.
10. At this point you should have adequate
headstay tension. The sails are built for
an average of 14” [350mm] of headstay
sag, possibly more or less depending
upon light or heavy air. The bend in the
standard mast should be about 4”
[100mm] and 1” [25mm] in the furling
mast and it should be nearly straight
from side to side when sailing upwind.
If any of these are not true then revisit
the appropriate step above to correct it.
If the sag in the headstay is too much
then adding tension to the verticals will
fix it.
11. Once the rig is tuned you should make
sure to add the cotter pins to all the
rigging bending back the ends and
taping them to prevent snagged lines,
sails and fingers.
Remember that rigging, like everything else,
can age. As it gets older it may need to be
replaced. The frequency for which this
becomes necessary depends on the climate
and conditions in which the boat is sailed.
For example: if you sail in the Caribbean it
should be replaced every 2-3 years
compared to every 10 for the great lakes.
You should consult a professional rigger for
advice.
 
Jan 12, 2011
930
Hunter 410 full time cruiser
I believe in things that can be measured.
I have the manual, but thanks for posting it. It says nothing about the question I asked.
 
Sep 10, 2012
220
Hunter 450 Gulfport, Florida
When I had my mast removed for inspection and rerigged it was to the aforementioned instruction, unfortunately the rigger mounted the forestay on a hollow aluminum spacer rather than the 5/8' solid ss pin, the subsequent rigger noticed that the mast bend spec'd was rather profound for the furler to rotate smoothly and relaxed the tension. Keep in mind the straight furler will not rotate cleanly in a bent housing.
 
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
When I had my mast removed for inspection and rerigged it was to the aforementioned instruction, unfortunately the rigger mounted the forestay on a hollow aluminum spacer rather than the 5/8' solid ss pin, the subsequent rigger noticed that the mast bend spec'd was rather profound for the furler to rotate smoothly and relaxed the tension. Keep in mind the straight furler will not rotate cleanly in a bent housing.
Relaxed the tension on the forestay? or the diagonals? I have seen a couple of different rig tuning directions by Selden, one states that the prebend should be 1% of the measured distance from the gooseneck to the mast head and another is no more than 1" prebend for a mast with in mast furling, keep in mind both sets of directions were for an in mast furling setup. As mine is now it appears to have at least the 1% prebend, but I plan on taking the mast down in the spring doing an inspection and restepping, which would be a good time to make adjustments to the diagonals. It sure would be nice to know exactly what those adjustments should be. Towards the end of last season the main sail would often give us trouble unfurling as it appeared to bunch up at the top of the mast and once the folding over started it would bunch the sail up much of the way down causing it to jam when unfurling. I attribute much of this issue to an 10+ year old sail, but I would think that too much prebend would also come into play.
 
Last edited:
Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
@Don Lucas I would think that the D1 and V1 tension is determined by the prebend and mast cross sectional resistance and not necessarily repeatable from mast to mast. Short answer, no I don't know what they are and the instructions indicate that its really not measured other than the how they effect the mast shape.
 
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Jan 12, 2011
930
Hunter 410 full time cruiser
@Don Lucas I can tell you without going to the boat that they are tight, maybe too tight but they are tight
So you don't know but have a feeling they have an issue??????

Mine are "tight". I even know how "tight" mine are, but have no idea really what "tight" might mean by itself.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Mine are "tight". I even know how "tight" mine are, but have no idea really what "tight" might mean by itself.
That is the crux of the entire rig tuning issue, right there. It's about the whole design, not about the cables or the gauges.
Make them as loose as they can be and still do their jobs under sail to put the least amount of stress on every part of your boat. If they are a little over tight, no big deal.
If they bend the mast in unwanted ways or allow too much movement, they need adjusting. Loosen stays to get a bend out, tighten them to stop slacking or movement.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
@Don Lucas what I have read is the D1's (lower inside shroud) should be tensioned to 20% of breaking load. The V1's which should be the first shrouds to be tensioned are loaded to 15-20%.
Now if your rigger did not set the prebend correctly what may be going on is V1 cap shrouds were tensioned causing a slight increase in prebend, but when bringing the D1's to tension the prebend was gone, he would then have to slacken the D1's off allowing the mast's set prebend to return.
I am told that setting these masts up is tricky and there is a bit of trial and error to get the D1 & V1 tensions correct while maintaining the desired prebend to the mast.
EDIT: Don, I have to admit I did not initially read your question close enough and went right to the tuning lane, while all you were really looking for was input on the inner shroud.
 
Jan 12, 2011
930
Hunter 410 full time cruiser
Make them as loose as they can be and still do their jobs under sail to put the least amount of stress on every part of your boat.
Well a little research will show that is not right. Loose rigging will result in more stress on the boat that tight rigging.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Well a little research will show that is not right. Loose rigging will result in more stress on the boat that tight rigging.
I haven't seen that concept presented before. I'll check into it. Perhaps there is too much ambiguity in the phrase I used,
Make them as loose as they can be and still do their jobs under sail
I don't mean make them loose. Only that the tighter you make a cable, the more stress is put on the cable, the shorter the life of the cable and all parts attached to them.
I can't see how doubling the tension on a chainplate, for example, will be less stressful. Reducing movement, definitely.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Feb 14, 2014
7,418
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
I agree.
Even a good rigger needs to tune the first pass rigging when under away with sails up.
I didn't chime in before, but the solution is complex.

Ans: Get a good rigger who understands your boat.
Jim...

PS: BTW your H410 is not like my in mast furling H430 either.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I thank you guys for your support, but really, it wasn't that bad. It's Don's thread, he asked for experienced advice and I chimed in without such advice. I have opinions and ideas and a sense of understanding, I don't hesitated to share. I hope my participation has prompted thought and learning around this subject. It has helped me. That's all I need say on the subject, for now.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Jan 12, 2011
930
Hunter 410 full time cruiser
gee everyone has an opinion about pushback for a response that wasn't about the question, but no one has any idea of their B&R rig. Do you guys also response to Catalina specific questions with a story about your Hunter?

BTW - a "qualified" rigged is how I got to asking this question. His "qualified" adjustment is different than the last "qualified" guys. At the same time he put these cotter pins in that are so long they might be called weapons.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I thank you guys for your support, but really, it wasn't that bad. It's Don's thread, he asked for experienced advice and I chimed in without such advice. I have opinions and ideas and a sense of understanding, I don't hesitated to share. I hope my participation has prompted thought and learning around this subject. It has helped me. That's all I need say on the subject, for now.

-Will (Dragonfly)
A boat you've never seen, a rig you've never sailed, and yet you have more comments and advice here than anyone else. Maybe its time to learn that listening without speaking can be a great way to learn, and build respect.